Pointless Poll

[shapinglight]

I decided I needed the appropriate icon before I can post my X-Men/Buffy comics post, so in the meantime, have a pointless poll. I hope people will answer in comments if they tick that box because I'm really interested to know what you think.

[Poll #1869218]

Comments

[shapinglight]

Me, I feel the same way I always used to feel about the show when I actually watch an episode, but in between times, the comics have definitely affected my view of the show.

In particular, I feel that with the utter irrelevance of Spike and Spuffy to the season 8 story, I didn't see what I thought I saw in season 7, which has had the weird knock-on effect of making me a very militant Spuffy 'shipper, which I actually wasn't before. I was perfectly happy with the way the shows dealt with the so-called love triangle in TGiQ, with Andrew telling Spike and Angel that Buffy loved them both but they should move on, like she had.

[kikimay]

I feel very much like you: I think that the comics made me a militant Spuffy, like I wasn't before. (I loved Spuffy, but I was also pretty content with all the triangle-stuff)
After "Twilight" I want to see Buffy and Spike together and I want all the ambiguities explained. Joss better solve this mothafucka threesome! *in a Nick Fury's voice*

[kazzy-cee.livejournal.com]

I don't read the comics.... so I'm completely ignorant of the plots 'development' since the end of Season 7.

*g*

[shapinglight]

You're probably better off for it.

In fact, I know you are.

Though of course fandoms thrive on kerfuffles/overflowing indignation, so the comics have probably given the Buffyverse fandom a few more years than it otherwise would have had.

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

Hasn't really affected my view of the shows except for I like Angel (the character from the show) more.

Now, if you wanna know if they've affected my view of Joss...

[elisi]

Now, if you wanna know if they've affected my view of Joss...
Ah yes. This.

[ms-scarletibis.livejournal.com]

I like certain characters (even less than before) due to the comics, but i'd have to say overall, it hasn't altered my perception of [actual] canon, no.

[shapinglight]

It doesn't affect my view of the show when I'm actually watching the show, but I do resent the way it's intruded on my fandom life. I love Show!Angel, but I dislike him so much in the comics that I now find it very difficult to write him in fanfic as anything except an enormous d**k.

[fenderlove.livejournal.com]

I think the comic has made me think more about the things I really disliked and disagreed with about the show. Without the show being on the air, I've had more time to reflect, and I find that I fundamentally abhor a lot of the messages throughout canon. The comics just proved that those things were never going to change.

[shapinglight]

Without the show being on the air, I've had more time to reflect, and I find that I fundamentally abhor a lot of the messages throughout canon. The comics just proved that those things were never going to change.

So would you say that rather than it making you change your view of the show it's more made you change your view of Joss?

[aphroditemf.livejournal.com]

I enjoy the show more since reading the comics, mostly in regards to the comics that flesh out the vampires' back stories. I think this is partly because the period settings always looked a bit cheap in the show, but with comic book art the budget isn't an issue.

[shapinglight]

Which comics are you talking about? I actually can't remember much of vampire characters' backstories in seasons 8 or 9, apart from a few snippets in the Drusilla arc in Angel & Faith.

[fenchurche.livejournal.com]

I don't think it's affected my view of the shows, but mostly because I've actively worked to not let it... plus, I quit actually reading the comics awhile ago (because it *was* starting to influence my love of the shows) and have taken to reading recaps and catching the occasional page of it here and there. And to be honest, I'm may quit doing even that.

I wish I could say I'm surprised by how horribly the characters have been trashed in the comics, but then I think back to "Chosen" and how, by the end of the season 7, the writers had made me hate nearly every character I used to love (which is really saying something) and killed off pretty much all the ones I still liked.

[shapinglight]

And to be honest, I'm may quit doing even that.

I don't blame you. I should do the same, I know. I just can't seem to look away.

Unlike you, I ended season 7 with my love for all the characters pretty much intact, but my reason for being able to do that was because the story was over and therefore any interpretation was valid. But the story we've got in the comics only allows for a narrow interpretation of season 7 which I don't like much anyway.

[francy-m79.livejournal.com]

I picked the second option "I like the show less becaus eof the comics", even though it's not actually true. The show is always the same great show that gave me my OTP, it's the comics that suck beyond words and should never have been made.

The comics are affecting my views on Spuffy because of how Whedon decided to show Spike and Spuffy as completely irrelevant, obliterating Chosen, never addressing their unresolved issues and disregarding the progress Buffy and Spike had made in season 7 to go back to the same old pre-season 7 dynamic (of which I'm pretty sick of).

So, either

a) Spuffy is real, but Whedon is regressing everyone (Buffy, Spuffy, etc) because otherwise he has run out of ideas on how to continue the story, and he needs to create infinite drama to keep the comics going because drama is the only thing he can write (and that isn't a sign of a great writer)

or

b)all along, Spuffy was never intended to be the epic and important romance some of us thought it was, but rather what many non-shippers saw: a demon redeemed by his love for Buffy, who couldn't reciprocate but supported and believed in him, forging a meaningful friendship.

The jury is still out!!

[shapinglight]

The comics are affecting my views on Spuffy because of how Whedon decided to show Spike and Spuffy as completely irrelevant, obliterating Chosen, never addressing their unresolved issues and disregarding the progress Buffy and Spike had made in season 7 to go back to the same old pre-season 7 dynamic (of which I'm pretty sick of).

Sounds like you're pretty much in the same boat as me. I'm leaning towards b), but only because every pronouncement that comes from the comics PTBs trend that way.

[missus-grace.livejournal.com]

I'm sure, like many others will say, since I don't read the comics my canon stopped with Why We Fight.

[shapinglight]

Hmm, why that episode in particular, if you don't mind saying?

[brutti-ma-buoni.livejournal.com]

Since the comics aren't my canon and are imo a bit crap overall, they have made me realise how good the show actually is. Contrast is a marvellous thing.

[shapinglight]

There is that. Very positive way of looking at it, which I hope to get to myself one day.

[makd.livejournal.com]

I read and followed the Angel "After the Fall" for about 1-1/2 to 2 years. Then, IMO, the quality of the stories sagged and I lost interest.

I haven't read any of the Buffy comics except for 2 of them that were posted online for friends. Didn't like them; wouldn't buy them; still won't buy them.

Heard about the buffy/angel flying/fucking story. Ugh. just...no. Same for Buffy/with a younger slayer. No. just...enough. enough.

The comics have partially ruined my enjoyment of the old Buffy and Angel stories.

[shapinglight]

The comics have partially ruined my enjoyment of the old Buffy and Angel stories.

Same here - at least, that's the way I feel at the moment. I hope it will pass in time, because ultimately the comics aren't going to be considered a proper continuation of the show by posterity.

[estepheia.livejournal.com]

I stopped reading S8 after Ethan's death. I sometimes read spoilers, and so far I don't regret not reading the comics. I have a couple more comics lying around from a friend who bought the trade paperbackes and gave me his single issues - maybe I will read them once I've completed my Ethan-resurrection fic :)
I read a few mini series, but I've forgotten them (Spike trapped in some sort of asylum? don't remember)

The comics I read never succeeded in bringing the actors' input to the table. The thing I always liked about Joss's work are the characters - and the casting. There was a synergy effect that transcended most TV series. Look at the way some of the Jossverse alumnis still work together - Joss's stories are more than a job for them.
Look at James Marsters. IMHO he never acted his guts out again like he did as Spike. This synergy effect, the emotion that the actors pour into their characters, that is something the comics fail at. And reading them makes me painfully aware that I desperately want more episodes - with live actors acting their guts out!

[shapinglight]

It's certainly true that the comics can never, ever compare to the show because of the absence of live actors. It's even possible that the scene in a recent issue where Spike and Buffy part wouldn't come across nearly has harsh if SMG had been acting the scene.

Yes, the way the comics wrote Ethan out of the story so cavalierly annoyed me too. I think Joss never got he was a fan favourite. In fact, Joss never got a lot of stuff that the fans loved and appreciated, which doesn't matter so much in a TV show (he should fulfil his vision, not do what the fans want), but comics are a whole different animal.

[gillo]

I haven't read all of the comics, though my family have given me quite a lot of S8 from time to time.

I love the show. The comics are meh, but they occasionally stir plot bunnies. I usually hunt out a couple of reviews when they come out, but feel no great urge to read them for myself. I will happily rewatch, even SR or Beer Bad, though.

[shapinglight]

I'm glad you're getting something out of them. I can't imagine taking anything from them as the starting point for fic - well, beyond the very vaguest fact, like Buffy not being in Rome but in Scotland.

[rahirah]

This is complicated, becasue while the comics make the parts of the show I don't like look better in comparison, they don't make me really like them any better. It's just that I can now say, "There are seasons I like less than X." The comics definitely do affect the way I see the characters' TV relationships in retrospect - but then, the show does that too; the later seasons affect how I see the earlier ones.

[shapinglight]

The comics definitely do affect the way I see the characters' TV relationships in retrospect - but then, the show does that too; the later seasons affect how I see the earlier ones.

This is something I'm trying to resist but have definitely succumbed to to a great extent, though I'm probably happier with some things from the show than you are.

[spikes-evilbint.livejournal.com]

I don't read the comics or have any interest in doing so, so I guess really I should have answered that they don't affect my view at all. LOL!

[shapinglight]

You haven't missed anything, ;)

[mrs-underhill.livejournal.com]

I have to admit I'm immensely enjoying yet another rewatch of Buffy and Angel which was prompted by MW.
I used to go there then the place was spoiled for me by that Spuffy blowout, but I'm just enjoying rewatches again, and even felt up for some fanfiction.

Comics are somewhere far away for me, they don't influence me at all. Maybe in some weird way, as they drove me to appreciate the show more.

Hmm, and I tried reading Lynch AtS comics a bit recently, Smile Time one, and it was much more grating for me now, Spike felt very off. I remember jumping off that bandwagon too when the things started to get ugly with Spike's soul.

[shapinglight]

I used to go there then the place was spoiled for me by that Spuffy blowout, but I'm just enjoying rewatches again, and even felt up for some fanfiction.

:) I gave up on MW very early on because I was sure he would react badly to the AR etc. However, when I had a peek at some of his later season 7 reviews (from Sleeper onwards) I was pleasantly surprised. While certainly not a Spuffy, he seems to have warmed to Spike a little since the character got a soul.

There was a lot of stupid/unpleasant stuff in the later IDW comics. Ultimately, I think Spike: Asylum and Spike: Shadow Puppets were the best comics series either company has managed to produce.

[slaymesoftly.livejournal.com]

I don't think they've affected my view of the show or the characters. Unlike so many, I have followed all the comics - both Buffy and Angel (and any short arcs about Spike/Willow/etc.) Some things I've liked, some things I haven't. I don't expect them to have the same effect on me because two dimensional drawings (some of which are pretty weird/awful, IMHO) can't evoke the same responses as live actors who inhabit those characters. The comics are, to me, as a writer, just an addition to the fandom's plot prospects. Fortunately, they've had that effect on a few other authors too.

Season 8 was so over the top that it didn't seem to inspire fic in anybody (one exception - but I don't think she finished it) until Spike showed up. Then, suddenly, we have fic again. Mostly set on the ship after he shows up, or beginning with the fire escape scene. Just as with the show episodes, there are certainly scenes/plot lines that seem to inspire plot bunnies for fic more so than others.

Season 9 has, so far, given us a few more starting points for fic, so that's a bonus. For those who avoid fic set in the comics-verse, expecting it to be awful, keep in mind that if it's being written by someone who "gets" the characters and writes well, it could be just as enjoyable to read as something set in any of the 7 seasons of the show. The Spike and Buffy you know (talking, mostly, obviously about Spuffy fic) are there and having adventures and relationship issues just as they would be if the fics were set in some non-comics compliant future. If the author is someone you like, trust, and would read otherwise, I think you might be depriving yourself of some good reading by saying "I don't follow the comics, so won't read fic that does." You may not care for the comic characters or the plot lines, but you might enjoy what your favorite authors have done with them.

[shapinglight]

I know there are some people writing comics compliant fic, but to be honest, apart from the odd snippet here and there (quinara wrote something I quite enjoyed with Spike's steam punk ship in it) I'm not really interested. There isn't a single incident in the comics that I want to pay more than the vaguest lip service to - along the lines of, Buffy isn't living in Rome but in a Scottish castle. There is just no other plot point I want to see explored.

I'm glad some people are getting something out of it, though.

[treadingthedark.livejournal.com]

When I first saw the spacefucking issue, it totally ruined Buffy for me. I didn't want to see it, discuss it, watch the show or even read fic for a while. I was embarassed to be a Buffy fan. Embarassed!

That has faded, I read a couple of old favorite long fics and got my Spuffy love back, but my Spangel love may never recover. As far as the present comics go, I buy the Spike because so far they amuse me and Spike pictures are pretty, but I don't care about them, wouldn't even care if Spike moved on from Buffy at this point. Comics Buffy is kind of stupid, although not as stupid as Comics Angel.

[shapinglight]

When I first saw the spacefucking issue, it totally ruined Buffy for me. I didn't want to see it, discuss it, watch the show or even read fic for a while. I was embarassed to be a Buffy fan. Embarassed!

That I can understand- stupid and embarrassing barely begins to cover it. I still can't believe Joss signed off on that.

And I know what you mean about ruining your Spangel love. That's happened to me too. I can hardly write them now without Angel being a massive, massive dick. Season 8 has convinced me they just hate each other - and in particular, that Angel hates Spike.

Comics Buffy is kind of stupid, although not as stupid as Comics Angel.

Yes, I think this is my main complaint about the comics. They've made both protagonists very unlikeable.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

What I've always found to be hilarious about my reaction to the comics - is Whedon managed to kill my obsession to the series, comic books, and to his own works and writings in one fell swoop! Kudos. Particularly considering that my obsession with Buffy and Whedon sprung from my obsession with X-men comics.

I was an X-man fan, then got obsessed with Buffy/Angel and Whedon, and gave up on X-men comics. Stopped collecting.
Then Whedon wrote X-men, and I started collecting comics again, along with the Buffy comics.

Then in 2010-2011 Whedon managed to kill my interest in the comics and in his writing - the Twilight arc did me in. I can't look at Angel the same way again (or Cyclops for that matter) - sort of destroyed that character permanently for me. He became one-dimensional and uninteresting after the comics. I lost interest in all comics eventually..and coincidentally right after that.

I personally don't think Whedon's very good at writing comics - you see all the flaws in his writing process, story, and world-building. And he has no patience for the medium. TV and movies yes. Comics, it's too solitary, not collaborative enough...he needs breathing actors to play with.

[shapinglight]

What I've always found to be hilarious about my reaction to the comics - is Whedon managed to kill my obsession to the series, comic books, and to his own works and writings in one fell swoop! Kudos. Particularly considering that my obsession with Buffy and Whedon sprung from my obsession with X-men comics.

That is pretty impressive, I agree. I certainly don't see myself actively seeking out Whedon content either from now on, though I may make an exception of Much Ado About Nothing because I want to see more of Alexis Denisof.

You and I have come to the Buffyverse from the same place. Ironically, I find myself drifting back to the X-Men now. I think it's unlikely to suck me in the way it did before simply because there's too much material (some of it not very good) and the story is so bitty and confusing it's hard to get invested any more.

Also, I think you're right about Joss and comics. I don't think he's terribly good at them either.

[chasingdemons.livejournal.com]

I have not read the comics. I've wondered from time to time if I should. But I keep reading posts like this. For me, it's still all about the show. In that respect, and based on the opinions I've read, I'm sort of relieved that my relationship with the characters is still "unsullied". Do I want to read the comics if it is going to change my view in a negative way? And here is where my ignorance shows, so forgive me for being so completely out of the loop, but it seems like random people (apparently with Joss's input) are creating some very bizarre storylines and then it gets to be called canon. If there was an understanding that the comics represented someone's fantasy interpretation and not "the official story" I think they would be better received. And if the comics are not portraying Spike in a way that is worthy of his character, I want nothing to do with them.

[shapinglight]

I should avoid them, if I were you, even though they haven't (yet - I'm sure it's on the cards) succeeded in trashing Spike the way they have Buffy and Angel.

The trouble is, when season 8 started, Joss was very involved with it and designated it official canon, and so it remains until he says otherwise, which he's unlikely to do, even though his involvement is now minimal.

That doesn't mean you have to read them, though. Being a different medium, it's easy to ignore them if you want, especially if you've managed to avoid them so far.

[treadingthedark.livejournal.com]

I think Joss is good at some things, like casting. Doesn't work in comics!

Chasingdemons if you managed to miss the season 8 comics, just pat yourself on the back and let it go. You win.

[shapinglight]

Yes, I've told her the same thing.

[ex_peasant441]

They haven't made me exactly like or dislike the show more, but it has hugely changed my opinion of Joss Whedon - he obviously didn't actually care about some stuff that I previously thought he did care about - and that alters the lens I view the show through. So not exactly better or worse, but definitely different.

Mind you, it is so long since I actually watched any canon this is almost irrelevant anyway. My interaction with Bufffyverse is now almost entirely through fanfic and most of it is only very, very distantly related to show canon.

[shapinglight]

he obviously didn't actually care about some stuff that I previously thought he did care about - and that alters the lens I view the show through. So not exactly better or worse, but definitely different.

This possibly wasn't as much of a surprise to me as it was to you. I'd read his previous comics series, Fray, which is set in a sort of dystopian future Buffyverse, and realised reading it that the things that were important to Joss in his 'verse weren't at all the same as the things that were important to me. It was easier to cope with, though, when he was writing about comics only characters. When he started doing the same with the show characters, it was much worse for me.

[zanthinegirl.livejournal.com]

I've actually kind of liked some things about the various series (though the less said about season 8 the better) but I haven't liked the way they've "developed" some of the characters I loved. And I'm Not Pleased with the retconning of Angel's actions in season 8. Season 8 was out of character, but instead of owning it they seem to be trying to justify it. Or maybe just Angel is; it's a little hard to tell.

Mostly I can divorce my feeling about the characters from the comics as I don't really consider them canon. It does start to affect me, but I recently figured out the cure for that: rewatching the actual show. Seriously! It makes all the badness go away!

eta for typo

[shapinglight]

but I recently figured out the cure for that: rewatching the actual show. Seriously! It makes all the badness go away!

I've found it has a similar effect. I wish my season 5 re-watch hadn't stalled due to lack of time.

I don't know what's going on with Angel either, but the pronouncements from Scott Allie don't jibe at all with what's being said and done in the book. Not so far anyway.

[menomegirl.livejournal.com]

The comics don't affect my view of the shows at all because I stopped thinking of the comics as canon when Skinless Warren showed up and when Lorne 'got his groove back'. For me, the comics are nothing more than (sometimes worse than) REALLY BAD fanfic.

The only reason I have a working knowledge of what's going on in them is because of the Herald; looking for reviews, meta and fic to link means reading all of that so that makes me aware of what's happening. Plus, I like to check out what people say about the comics over at Whedonesque and pop in to ask questions now and then, especially when something's happened that I don't understand.

[shapinglight]

because I stopped thinking of the comics as canon when Skinless Warren showed up and when Lorne 'got his groove back'. For me, the comics are nothing more than (sometimes worse than) REALLY BAD fanfic.

It is pretty hard to take it seriously when Joss openly admits he's forgotten his own canon.

[farmgirl62.livejournal.com]

I'm a big believer that the comics are canon. I may not like what I see but if this is the continuation of Joss' vision (and he says it is), then I see it as part of the story but with a larger pallet.

Now Joss' touch is CLEARLY missing in many aspects, the dialog is just not as witty, the character moments are not always and moving. But I take the general direction as a sign.

As it affects my thoughts on the show, I'd say both positive and negative depending on whether or not I like the direction.

Buffy - right now it's neutral leaning towards negative because I think she's repeating a lot of trials in S9 that I had mistakenly thought she was past. Then again, I can see how dealing with The First sort of stunted her path to full adulthood and why she's floundering now. I'm hoping S9 finishes strong.

Xander - leaning towards better as he did well in the Nick Fury role (showing competence) but now it looks like he's finally dealing with long-held rage issues. I'm pissed there's less of him in S9 comics but I know that it's being done for a plot point.

Willow - leaning towards negative because Willow has been a bit flaky and I would have rather had Joss' direct engagement on some of her scenes and dialog. I get what she's going through.

Dawn - I'm fine with Dawn. She's grown up a great deal but the vector seems natural. I'm fine with the Dawn/Xander relationship because I think they worked it reasonably well. I totally get those who haven't read the comics are not going to like it. If someone said "Spuffy" was romantic to me in S3 I'd be all ooh-ick. But it made sense in S7.

Spike - Could go either way. I'm glad he's stepping away from Buffy because he needed to. I want Spike to be Spike, independent of Buffy. I'm fine with Spuffy working out but she has to want him for him (not the dark thing). Right now Buffy is not wanting anything or anyone (friend or romance).

Faith - I love her so much more in the comics.

Connor - I love him in the comics. Then again, I liked him in the show and was fine with the whole Greek tragedy.

Angel - Oy. I want to kick his ass in the comics but I think his actions are TOTALLY in character. I'm really hoping we get a HUGE payoff for how much they have drug his character thru the mud.

On Joss Whedon - Yay he continued the 'verse. Boo hiss that he doesn't spend as much time on it. Double Boo Hiss that he (IMO) trots out some political agenda items rather clumsily. I don't mind him making a point, but he should be more subtle.

Bottom line:
- I see the comics as canon but they suffer from less Joss touch in the details and he's addressing political issues with less finess than I would like.
- I'm both positive and negative on the development based on storyline.

[shapinglight]

Thanks for your perspective. I hope you don't feel too isolated in the sea of negativity. ;)

Looked at from the perspective of the comics characters, I do agree with a lot of what you say, and I don't dispute that it's canon if Joss says it is. On the other hand, if people want to ignore it, I think the change in medium makes that perfectly possible too.

So really, I suppose where I'm coming from is not that I dispute the comics' canonicity, nor necessarily the character points you raise. It's more that I think it's not a good story - certainly not the only way the story could have gone after BtVS season 7/AtS season 5 - and I'm just bewildered and disappointed that these are the options Joss chose.

I definitely agree that more input from him would improve things, but that's not likely to happen. He's way too busy. Does make me wonder for how much longer the story will be regarded as proper canon if Joss has no - or next to no - hand in it.