More BtVS season 5, up to Into the Woods

[shapinglight]

So recently, I started re-watching BtVS season 5 for the first time in ages. Got as far as FFL then had to stop with no idea when I'd get the chance to watch more.

Last night, I managed three more eps, ending with Into the Woods, and have some thoughts about that ep and the end of Buffy/Riley behind cut.



I know that many people think Riley's a complete douche for doing what he does to Buffy - the sleeping around getting suck jobs from vamps, the intimation that it's partly Buffy's fault for shutting him out, the ultimatum etc - and that Xander's pro-Riley speech at the end is completely wrong-headed and something Xander had no right to say.

And both things are douchey/overstepping boundaries, but the thing is, I think it's more complicated than just that both Riley and Xander were wrong. Riley is 100% wrong to put the blame on Buffy and to give her that ultimatum, especially given what she's going through at the time with her mum, but, having watched the episode again, I don't think he was entirely wrong in what he said, his timing just sucked. And Blucas managed to convince me that Riley knew how he was coming across, like he was blaming her, and regretted it like hell, but having been put on the spot by Buffy's Spike-assisted discovery, he had to fess up and admit what had sent him on that path.

I also think he was spot on when he said that what Buffy felt for him was nothing like what she felt for Angel - that she hadn't the same passion for him - and everything everyone else said, right down to poor innocent Dawn at the carousel - only reinforced his belief. And to me, I do see hints in Buffy's behaviour that if, say, the sexes were reversed, could be taken as evidence that Guy!Buffy wasn't really in love with his girlfriend but just wanted her around when it suited him/when things were good and there wasn't more important stuff to think about.

I mean, guys have been doing that in fiction for a long time.

But contrariwise, I actually don't think Buffy thought that. It's not just reversing the trope, or whatever. I think she did take Riley a bit for granted, but it certainly wasn't her that had introduced the notion that being 'dependable' was a bad thing. That was all in Riley's head. He was wrong to compare himself with Angel or to think that Buffy did. If anything, she was probably relieved and grateful that he was so different. Ironically, also, everyone who said that about Riley - being dependable -was right. Riley was dependable (up to now anyway), he was the good guy, and Xander was also right that in letting him leave Buffy was giving up her best shot so far for a stable relationship with a really good, kind person.

In that sense, Buffy's desperate chase after Riley's helicopter was both an acknowledgement of that fact, and not a capitulation but an acceptance of that truth.

On the other hand, if Riley couldn't accept that Buffy's feelings for him were qualitatively different than what she felt for Angel - quieter, more adult, in fact - couldn't accept it so much that he went looking for the kind of passion he wanted her to feel for him elsewhere, then Spike's selfishly motivated actions in taking Buffy to the vamp crack house were the best thing for everyone in the long run, even Buffy, who proved to be way more grown up than Riley in matters of the heart, IMO, and was willing to forgive and compromise, as her run after the helicopter shows. In other words, she was not wrong to run after Riley -it wasn't an admission of guilt- but it was a good thing she was too late.

YMMV, of course, and probably will.

As for what else goes on in these episodes, the Buffy/Joyce/Dawn stuff is all absolutely superb. My heart breaks for poor Buffy. Responsibilities were forced on her so young, yet up to now, she always knew that when the worst came to the worst, she still had a mother to look after her (it works the same in potential as in reality) and a home to go back to. Now, she has to be responsible for everyone, even her mother, and that home is just another burden (or will soon become so).

Comments

[snickfic]

I agree with everything you say here. Yes.

Regarding the Buffy/Dawn/Joyce stuff, the point in the whole season when I'm likeliest to cry is during Listening to Fear, when Buffy's doing dishes and turns up the radio to drown out the sound of her crying. OH BUFFY.

[shapinglight]

Oh God, yes! The fact that the music she's listening to is about the worst music ever only adds to the whole misery of the scene. Poor, poor Buffy!

I agree with everything you say here. Yes.

Thanks. I've edited what I wrote so many times now I'm even confused myself about what I said. ;)

[snickfic]

Actually, now I recall that she's turned up the radio to drown out her mother saying scary, crazy thing, which is even worse.

Well, whatever you said, it was good. :)

[shapinglight]

Actually, now I recall that she's turned up the radio to drown out her mother saying scary, crazy thing, which is even worse.

That whole scene with Joyce acting crazy is just brilliant. So well done.

[brutti-ma-buoni.livejournal.com]

Wise words. Both in the specifics, and also taking the time to go back to canon and really see it. I know I'm guilty of shorthand in talking about tropes, and rewatching mostly favourite episodes, so I'm slowly losing the nuance of things that at the time I knew were complex. Maybe as the nights draw in (and after saying goodbye to my temp houseguest!) I should start again at season 1. Quite tempting.

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

Doooo it!

[shapinglight]

Well, I've hardly watched any in ages, and since season 1 was the last one I watched in entirety - and that several years ago - I should have gone on to season 2. But I can't face the high school years. I don't connect with them that well.

But yes. A complete rewatch sounds like a good idea.

[ex_peasant441]

Interesting stuff about the Buffy/Riley relationship.

I agree it was a good thing for him she failed to catch the helicopter. He was clearly looking for excitement in their relationship and it was fair enough to not just want to be the dependable one. I'm not so sure it was good for her. If she had stuck with him then as she came out of mourning she might well have been able to give him the excitement he was looking for and it could have been a perfectly good relationship.

[shapinglight]

Possibly. But if he always wanted more than she was able to give it would ultimately have imploded, I'm sure.

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

I go even farther than you in some ways. I don't actually think that Riley is blaming Buffy. His little speech pretty much owns that he screwed up. He uses "I" statements and stuff. Of course, he did what he did because of Buffy (You keep me at a distance Buffy), but that doesn't make it her fault, and I get the impression that he knows that. Probably when he says, "This isn't your fault. It's mine." ;-)

I don't think the ultimatum was meant to be that, but boy did the timing suck big time. Really though, if what he wants from her is for her to be different than she is, then it's probably better that he stop fantasizing that she'll change and go find the kind of relationship that would make him happy. It's his prerogative, even if Buffy might wish for a different outcome. I think she was happy with (what she thought was) their relationship. But it wasn't what she thought, and that always stings.

I don't think he's particularly dependable, even if he gives of the "dependable guy" vibe. If he were, he would have actually been there being support-o-guy and doing what he told Buffy he would do. Which is what she needs in these trying times. He put his own needs first, in a pretty dramatic way.

As for Xander's speech, well I think he's all about the blaming of Buffy there, even if his final point is valid. So, not a fan. I have many more thoughts on that here:

http://fantas-magoria.livejournal.com/293475.html

[kikimay]

I agree. I'm gonna read your post later. Clearly, Riley needed to find himself and other things. He wasn't the one for Buffy.

[shapinglight]

I don't actually think that Riley is blaming Buffy. His little speech pretty much owns that he screwed up. He uses "I" statements and stuff. Of course, he did what he did because of Buffy (You keep me at a distance Buffy), but that doesn't make it her fault, and I get the impression that he knows that. Probably when he says, "This isn't your fault. It's mine." ;-)

Yeah, I don't really think he is either. It's just very hard to say that without making it look like I think it's Buffy's fault. And I don't. They're just at cross-purposes as to what they want out of the relationship.

Like you say, in fact.

I felt her helicopter run was more a question of her being more willing to compromise than him rather than an admission of guilt, but now I've just watched Triangle and she is indeed blaming herself. Poor, poor Buffy.

I suppose you're right about Xander, but I'm going to cut him a break because I think he genuinely believed what he was saying and that Buffy was throwing away a guy in a million. Plus, he was all mixed up about committing to Anya. Which again comes up a lot in Triangle, though with season 6 in mind, in a very ironic way.

Poor everybody really.

[chasingdemons.livejournal.com]

I absolutely love season 5! And as I said before, I do empathize with Riley. Not to say Buffy did anything wrong at all. What was happening with her mother was awful for her. But I think in Riley's version of a relationship, it would have been a reason for Buffy to lean on him for support, not to push him away. I don't think Riley needed to be thought of in the same way Buffy once thought of Angel, but I do think he needed to feel like he was in a partnership. Instead, Riley had little control over when Buffy let him in and when she needed him to step out of the way. I don't know too many people who could be happy being part of a relationship under those circumstances. He handled it all wrong of course, but I think he was right in his assessment of their relationship.

And then I see Riley with the woman he married. They are so clearly a team. They are on a mission “together”. She adores him and has his back. He looks happy.

Again, I want to say this is not blaming Buffy or disliking her. On the contrary, I feel bad for her. But it's just the way things are. She's the slayer. In the end, she acts alone.

[shapinglight]

And then I see Riley with the woman he married. They are so clearly a team. They are on a mission “together”. She adores him and has his back. He looks happy.

Yes, though she is of course a robot. ;)

No, I do get what you mean. They wanted different things out of their relationship. I don't know if it necessarily started off that way. I don't think it did, but the crisis with Buffy's mum precipited a Riley crisis too and he didn't handle it well.

She's the slayer. In the end, she acts alone.

Yes, this is something that Spike - for all his cluelessness elsewhere, and as of Triangle he is very clueless - understood all too well. And of course is something that Buffy ultimately over came. Good for her until the comics came along anyway.

[rahirah]

Yeah, that makes sense. The thing about Buffy is not that she can't love. It's that very often, either she won't let herself love, or she can't/doesn't express her love in such a way as to make the object of her feelings understand what those feelings are. And then she gets angry and hurt when they give up and walk away, and that makes her less likely to open up to the next person in line, and the cycle just repeats. :/

[shapinglight]

Pretty much. In so many ways it's a gender transposed version of what happens a lot in drama, but somehow, Buffy being a woman gets punished for it a lot more. Hmm.

But it was things like this about her personality that did make me think she could make a good general one day. Dunno.

[rahirah]

What mainly bothered me about General Buffy wasn't so much the general part, but that I felt like she was shown being a really bad general. :/

(I think a lot of the trouble with the other thing is that it's not just Buffy's paramours who can't read her, it's half the audience. I am positive that Buffy CAN love; I'm just never sure when she DOES.)

[shapinglight]

What mainly bothered me about General Buffy wasn't so much the general part, but that I felt like she was shown being a really bad general. :/

Her tactics were definitely off in season 7 but you could put that down to inexperience (and the writers being crap at plotting, which they had been since season 4, where they were reduced to making Spike be fall guy at the end of the season). I thought she had the makings of a good general, though, and am really, really disappointed that the comics ruined that. Her tactics right from the start weren't so much 'off' as freaking disastrous. I resent that for Buffy's sake.

[norwie2010.livejournal.com]

Yes. The comics: Horrible stuff - we will speak of it no more!

(Also: Yes to what you say about Buffy and generalship. Leading from the front is where the success is.)

[shapinglight]

The more I re-watch, the more I see how good she was at it. Okay, the situation was a little different in season 7 (much bigger army for one thing), but the potential was there.

There are even a few places early in season 8 where I can see what she does is probably the right choice. Then it all goes to hell because of the needs of the plot.

God, the Twilight thing is poisonous.

[rahirah]

Yeah, it's always difficult to tell where it's the writers making a mess, and where it's supposed to be the characters making a mess. Especially in S8, where all the characters are just jerked around by the exingencies of the (very stupid) plot rather than acting according to their inclinations and abilities.

[shapinglight]

Exactly. I just can't see even the most inept version of General Buffy from the show making that decision to flee to Tibet and give up her slayer powers.

I mean, what?

[elisi]

This is all very good, and pretty spot-on reflection of my own views.

[shapinglight]

:)

ETA: I like your icon. He's awfully tall, isn't he?

[fenchurche.livejournal.com]

That's one of the things that always amuses me about the Spike/Buffy kiss at the end of "Tabula Rasa" (even while thinking how hot it was). It's *really* obvious that SMG is used to kissing much taller guys... there's a move where she goes to run her hand over his shoulder and misses (because she's aiming way too high).

[shapinglight]

:)

Marc Blucas is enormous. I always thought Spike's description of Riley as 'the enormous hall monitor' was spot on.

[elisi]

I've had that icon for years and it just... works. I don't dislike him at all (heck, my first ever fic was Riley-centric), but he's just so huge. He doesn't really fit.

[shapinglight]

True. Everyone else is so mini.

[aphroditemf.livejournal.com]

I thought that the guy who played Riley was a terrible actor, so I was delighted when he and Buffy split.

[shapinglight]

Oh, I dunno. I think he's better than David Boreanaz was pre-the Angelus arc.

[eveolina.livejournal.com]

This is exactly how I see the Buffy/Riley breakup too. They wanted different things from the relationship and it was complicated. Also, there is the fact that Riley's whole life fell apart at the end of season four, and Buffy was all he had. No matter how much she loved him it wouldn't be enough to make up for that.

[shapinglight]

Also, there is the fact that Riley's whole life fell apart at the end of season four, and Buffy was all he had. No matter how much she loved him it wouldn't be enough to make up for that.

No, I guess when it came down to it, he was a rather conventional person and needed his own mission. Being a sidekick wasn't in his nature.

[itsnotmymind.livejournal.com]

Here via the Sunnydale Herald.

I agree, with the exception of Dawn at the carousal. Because all that Dawn said was that Buffy cried a lot more with Angel then Riley. And first of all, Buffy was a teenager when she was with Angel, and I'm pretty sure teenage girls cry more than adult women. It doesn't mean she loved Angel more. And second of all, Angel stalked her and tried to kill her and all her friends and did kill Jenny Calendar. If Riley did that, Buffy would get worked up about him, too. So I can't take Buffy getting more upset about Angel as proof that she loved him more, or even differently.

I do agree there are other things that can be read as evidence that Buffy loved Angel more, or at least differently.

I like your point about the helicopter. It's a complicated issue because at this point Riley really was in the wrong, and Buffy shouldn't be the one asking him to stay, but on the other hand, did she really want to throw away a relationship that had caused her a lot of happiness out of personal pride?

[shapinglight]

Here via the Sunnydale Herald.

Hi. Sorry to have been so slow answering you.

So I can't take Buffy getting more upset about Angel as proof that she loved him more, or even differently.

I agree that doesn't necessarily follow, but it's not really what I'm saying. I meant that what Dawn says to Riley at the carousel about how Buffy got more upset over Angel than she did over Riley would feed into Riley's insecurity and reinforce his belief that Buffy felt no real passion for him.

It's a complicated issue because at this point Riley really was in the wrong, and Buffy shouldn't be the one asking him to stay, but on the other hand, did she really want to throw away a relationship that had caused her a lot of happiness out of personal pride?

Yes, the dilemma in a nutshell.

[lokifan]

Yes, exactly. Especially in your note that Buffy is 'way more grown up than Riley in matters of the heart' - I think Buffy really loved Riley, but he wasn't her first love, and she was his. So he wanted to die when she kissed him, and she wanted something sane.

[shapinglight]

Very good way of putting it. I think that's it pretty much.