Fanfic musing

[shapinglight]

I don't know why I said I needed an icon for my fic writing whinges when I have this one. Not that this post is a whinge. More of a muse.

So, the other day, brutti_ma_buoni said that she's written 300+ fics in the last five years, which got me to wondering how many fics I've written in my eight years of fanfic writing (I think it's eight anyway). I haven't counted them, though, but instead got to musing about Buffyverse fanfic and fanfic writers in general.



When I think how much Buffyverse fanfic there was around in the early days compared to now it makes me a bit sad. There used to be so many websites out there -slash, het, yet more slash - whereas now - well, there are an awful lot less. I actually came into fic writing myself rather late in the day. I didn't post anything until after AtS ended. There was still a lot of fic being posted then. Those writers who'd survived the various shocks Joss had doled out along the way - like hiving Angel off into his own show at the end of season 3, or changing his mind about who sired Spike, or killing Tara, or lumping Spike (and thus Spuffy) with the AR - weren't ready to let go just yet.

So when I first dipped my toe into the Buffyverse fanfic writing waters, it was a pretty big pool with a lot of fish in it. Now, though, the pool has shrunk to more like a puddle, though -perhaps fortunately, perhaps not - there are a lot less of us to fill it. I can't think of many fic writers still in the fandom who've been active longer than I have (there are probably more still around than I realise as I'm not, for instance, friended to any Bangel writers), and not many who still only write Buffyverse stuff.

Which leads me to wondering why it is that the Buffyverse is still the only fictional world invented by other people that I want to fanfic? Am I just hidebound and complacent, do you think? Or are there still lots of meaningful things to say about the Buffyverse and its characters? Or, if not meaningful (because it's fanfic, after all) novel and interesting?

This post partly brought to you by my having fiddled with my rekindlespangel fic after all, even though I told myself to leave well alone, but ending up still thinking the premise pretty much smacks of desperation.

Hmm, this post sounded better in my head. Thoughts? Are there still new stories worth telling? Does it matter if there aren't? Is this post really whinging after all?

Comments

[rahirah]

I think some writers are drawn to particular sorts of character or relationship dynamics, and will be happy writing in any fandom, or about any characters, that have those dynamics. I think it's easier for them to switch fandoms, or write in multiple fandoms at once. Other writers are drawn more to the whole package - to universes rather than characters. Or maybe they just have much narrower ranges of relationship dynamics, such that they tend to arise only in certain types of universes. I dunno. I just know that it's a very, very, very rare fandom that inspires me to write fic - it's only happened twice, with Elfquest and Buffy. Not that I haven't tried to write fic about other fandoms occasionally (Star Trek, Doctor Who, Pern) but nothing's ever come of it.

A given writer may run out of things to say about a particular set of characters. But that doesn't mean that other writers won't still find new and interesting things to say about that exact same set of characters, because no two of us watch exactly the same show.

[shapinglight]

I'd agree with all of that, and it does help explain to me why I like the Buffyverse so much. It's a discrete 'verse, not just a few interesting characters. I'm definitely the second sort of writer.

And yes, it's quite true that new writers can come along and say something new and interesting. There are lots of cases in point, not least oni_9 fic, The Tinder Box,.

[kikimay]

Personally I think it's amazing that after all these years from both series finales there are still fanfics work in progress. I mean, how many other shows can have the same thing? I became part of the Buffyverse world after AtS ending and I'm one of the latest fangirls, so maybe I think it's amazing because of that, because I didn't see how it was before.

[shapinglight]

I mean, how many other shows can have the same thing?

There are possibly more around than you think, but I wouldn't really know, what with being so Buffyverse-centric. ;)

Anyway, I'm glad there's still enough here to interest and draw in newcomers.

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

BMB has written 300+ fics in the last year? DAMN.

To your questions - I've only written in two fandoms - Moulin Rouge (why does that still embarrass me to admit? IDK) and Buffy. writing fanfic or meta is something I can't imagine for any other movie or tv show (other than one not-bad effort for the movie The Hours, come to think of it.) And I came into fandom SWEARING I wouldn't write in this one. Hah.

As a newbie I'm not so aware of whose old, whose new - to me the library is just beginning to expand in terms of fics in this 'verse - from LJ to fanfic.net - which is where I got my start writing fanfic, but it never occured to me to look there for buffyverse fics until I found some recs - AoL, plus a variety of older websites, etc. And quite a few tend to be undated; I rarely glance at dates anyway. So for me, or I would think any other newbie, there's a great deal of richness yet to explore - this is the candy shop and here's the key.

None of which gets back to what you are saying, but - maybe there are only so many stories that can be told? As a writer I want to say something different, or say the same thing in my own particular way, and a lot has already been said. This applies to writing meta as well, of course. How many variations of Buffy and Spike reunite post-Chosen can there possibly be? And also, I'm not so much with the shippiness. That is, I love the late seasons, love Buffy and Spike S7, but the show wasn't exclusively about the romantic 'ships, but the majority of fanfic is.

I'm trying to expand my reading outside of spuffy but Bangel really doesn't float my boat, even when it's well-writing. Although I read two rather good, multichapter AU-ish ones yesterday that had some really original ideas and settings; and one had even very well-developed original characters. (Of course I've misplaced the link to it.)

And the overall level of writing is so high, at least what I've found, compared to the other fandom I was in (admittedly that's an apples to oranges comparison) that for my own part, I feel awed and more than a bit inadequate, looking at the quality that already exists here.

[rahirah]

Last FIVE years. Otherwise we'd have to kill her. *g*

[kikimay]

I do want the effort for The Hours! That movie makes me cry so damn much and, generally, it's one of my all the time favourites. Also I pretty much agree with everything you just wrote.

[shapinglight]

I'm not quite totally mono-fandom myself, but my experiments with other fandoms are so far in the past as hardly to count. I wrote a few Bladerunner fics back in the 80s. They only exist as handwritten hard copies and I don't even know where those are. I also wrote a couple of X-Men fics a little more recently (but still pre-dating any of the X-Men movies), but those only exist on an old 16" floppy disc. ;)

Re: what you say about only just discovering the candy shop, to be fair, some of the old fics I enjoyed when I first came into the fandom now seem quite unreadable to me (if they're still available). Sometimes it's because they were written while the show was on air and they got Jossed, or because they're prime examples of the use of tropes that just don't work for me. But anyway, not all of the old stuff was good by any means.

At any rate, as rahirah says, it's always possible for a new writer to come along and say something new and different, even if older writers run out of steam. So no, though I might think there are only so many stories I personally can tell, I don't think there are only so many stories too tell.

Re: 'shippy fics - I don't know if there was more gen back in the day. I don't really think so. 'Shipper fics of whatever pairing were always in the majority. There used to be a lot more m/m slash, though. Spike/Xander is still fairly popular, but there was a hell of a lot more Spike/Angel back then, and Giles/Ethan too. And Angel/Wesley. I don't think I've seen any of that for a long time. Not saying I miss all these things necessarily (well, Giles/Ethan, I miss) but there was more variety.

[slaymesoftly.livejournal.com]

Like you, I don't have much interest in reading or writing about characters in any verse except the one that got my attention in the first place. Having at least one thing that I'm writing/working on almost all the time for the past ten years or so has become so much a part of my life that I wonder what I will do with myself if and when the fandom dries up completely. I just don't have that same level of involvement with characters from any other fandom, even though I will sometimes read something from another fandom and enjoy it - it's not something I seek out.

I have no idea how much I've written - and where to draw the line? Should drabbles be included? How about really short things like those for sb-fag-ends? (not that I've done all that many).

I'm just grateful that there are still people who care about the fandom and who still read and write in it. Even if the numbers are way, way lower than they were when I first got into it and there were lots of archives to peruse and many more people writing.

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

I'm just grateful that there are still people who care about the fandom and who still read and write in it. Even if the numbers are way, way lower than they were when I first got into it and there were lots of archives to peruse and many more people writing.

the number of hours I have wasted in the last months - pleasurably - reading Buffy fanfic, I could not begin to quantify.

As a newbie I miss having been part of the excitement (especially when the fandom had a revival, from what I can tell, during 2008-2010 or so) but I'm also grateful not to have been caught up in wars, controversies and explosions? I mentioned to Barb once in a convo that I still find myself stepping in landmines, but overall things are very friendly and civil, and it's easy enough to pull back when I find opinions becoming overheated. And I think on some level, that passion, angst, bitterness in fandom is part of what fueled those creative spurts, but they also generated as much heat as light. So when that's lacking it feels like the fandom has died, but it's always new to those of us who are new to it - and who don't have a ready-made group with which to get feedback and bounce ideas off of. We have to slowly recreate networks and work our way into the fandom.

[shapinglight]

I wonder what I will do with myself if and when the fandom dries up completely. I just don't have that same level of involvement with characters from any other fandom

I feel the same. I sort of hope I might get an idea for something original and write that instead, but I can't imagine fanficcing anything else now.

And of course drabbles should be included. Drabbles take a lot of work to get just right.

I would say that, of course, as they're what I mostly write these days, but I do still think they count.

[spikesjojo.livejournal.com]

I came along really late, so I got to read all those stories when they were completed - except the ones that have been erased from the net. I kinda know what you mean from Trek fandom. I was a huge fan of the show when there was only one show, and no movies. It was one big family - dysfunctional as all hell.

I know that the Buffyverse is the only place that inspires me to write. There are other shows I like, and a few I love (have loved) but the characters in this universe all have so many layers. I think part of this is we get to watch them grow older. They make mistakes and have problems. Most shows seem to be more in the 'solve the problem of the week'. In the Buffyverse it's just as likely that any given character is the problem of the week. (Look at Lover's Walk)

Given that, my challenge writing is that I need to find my own stories - and so many great plots have been used. I need to find a new way of telling the same stories - or some other twist. But I don't want to write about any other shows, so here I am with you, in the Buffyverse. The great thing about reading here (B-verse) is that so often the same basic plot can be used to create a completely different story.

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

They make mistakes and have problems. Most shows seem to be more in the 'solve the problem of the week'. In the Buffyverse it's just as likely that any given character is the problem of the week. (Look at Lover's Walk)

Oh SO much so. It's why other tv shows are entertainment to me and the Buffyverse is something else entirely. I love that the characters actually challenge me to like them at times, and yet I can often understand them despite or because of their flaws.

The great thing about reading here (B-verse) is that so often the same basic plot can be used to create a completely different story.

Which comes back 'round to the fact that the writers here are so good and the level of writing so high. I've got a small handful of my favorite stories in the "Buffy and Spike post-Chosen or NFA" sub-genre, and they are each very different from one another but still capture something about the characters that feels true to me.

[shapinglight]

It was one big family - dysfunctional as all hell.

Yes, it's hard to believe that only a few years back it could get pretty crazy around here.

In the Buffyverse it's just as likely that any given character is the problem of the week. (Look at Lover's Walk)

I love that way of looking at it. And you're right. The characters are very layered, but this isn't the only show that's true of. It must be that for some of us it strikes a chord that resonates with us more than other shows.

The great thing about reading here (B-verse) is that so often the same basic plot can be used to create a completely different story.

This is true. There are a lot of variations on themes, and often they're completely different from each other and all good in their own way.

[brutti-ma-buoni.livejournal.com]

I still think there are stories to tell. It's not easy; I probably churn out ten ficlets knowing they are process, before hitting one that sings and feels new or interesting or worthwhile. But, eh, it's fun to write little mood pieces and try to evoke an instant or just be silly sometimes. They won't be the ones I reread, but they are enjoyable while they last.

[shapinglight]

We're always most critical of ourselves. I think most of what you write are perfect little gems.

I would love to write some more long, plotty stories myself. But I think I'm still too blocked.

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

Maybe due to the show(s) being more character-driven than most? That and Joss's knack for pissing everyone off, thus the need to "fix" the show.

Then there's the weird revisionism of the shows themselves, where fanfic seems to be the premise for other fanfic. The 'verse being in constant re-invention.

[shapinglight]

Maybe due to the show(s) being more character-driven than most? That and Joss's knack for pissing everyone off, thus the need to "fix" the show.

Heh! It's certainly true that Joss is good at pissing people off, and 'righting' his 'wrongs' is definitely one reason why people write fanfic. It's not mine, but it's a perfectly legitimate one.

[gillo]

I still find it hard to think of writing in other fandoms. I'm newer to it than you, but I feel like a dinosaur compared to some writers.

I think the depth and variety of the characters is what draws me in. Not to mention the range of options offered by a universe with magic and domestic problems, pure evil and plumbing issues. It means that I can usually find something to match my mood.

Yes, there are fewer of us than there were. But still a fair number - it takes me well over two hours to put together even the weekend edition of the su_herald. And those who are left tend to be people who have a grip of grammar, characterisation and plausibility, which are not ubiquitous in all fandoms.

[shapinglight]

I think the depth and variety of the characters is what draws me in. Not to mention the range of options offered by a universe with magic and domestic problems, pure evil and plumbing issues. It means that I can usually find something to match my mood.

Yes, very good point. The humour in the shows is very attractive. It helps make them anything but one-note. And the same is true of the fanfic. An awful lot of daftness alongside some wonderful high tragedy/romance etc.

I should probably have reminded myself just what hard work putting recs posts together is before saying anything. Some days, there's so much on the Herald I'm gobsmacked. Maybe part of my problem (a big part, in fact, is that these days I very rarely venture outside LJ in pursuit of fic, whereas obviously there's more out there on FF.net and Ao3 if I'd only bother to look.

[chasingdemons.livejournal.com]

One thing about Buffy/Angel is that there are so MANY characters, and each one is compelling in his/her own way. There are so many possible pairings… Something for everyone! And then, of course, everything else about the shows. And then… Spike!

Even though I certainly wasn't one of the early fans, things were hopping on LJ when I got here. I miss that terribly. But when I think about making manips for any other show, I just have no desire. And there are still stories to tell. I have seen them just in the last couple weeks. It's just hard when there are so few people to read them. In a way I think the fandom killed itself. Bickering and fighting and splitting into a million factions.

Well that made me very sad. I'm going to go have some chocolate now. :-)

[shapinglight]

Chocolate is always good. You do have a point about fandom killing itself, though I don't think what happened is unique to the Buffyverse fandom by any means.

One thing about it being quieter, though, hopefully those sorts of nastiness will be fewer and further between. On the other hand, most people who write/create art not for profit want and need feedback, and the fewer people to provide it, the less inclined you are to make the effort.

Oh well. We trundle on. Often people go, but sometimes they come back.

:hugs:

[singedbylife.livejournal.com]

These comments make me feel so happy because I am a newbie (only here since 2011, I think) and during the last couple of weeks, fandom or those I've friended have been eerily quiet and I thought to myself 'Alright you silly sad woman, now it's dead and you came into it much too late'.

The thought was almost painful to me.

I cannot tell you how much I've regretted the fact that I didn't watch Buffy when it aired.

A writer whose slave!fic I had been following in 2010, had written other stories too, mostly about this character "Spike". Eventually, she inadvertedly made me go and buy the DVDs. I fell head over heels in love with Spike. Then it took me a good while to figure out where to find the stories and pairings that I like.

Anyway, for a newbie like me, it's such a relief to learn that there are still people around out there who give a damn and who keep posting new fics. Because honestly, being this new, it would break my poor heart a little, if there was nobody left.

I have read tons of fics in this fandom and because of the characters being so diverse and larger than life in a good sense, I can't see any reason why you/we shouldn't be able to write them for many more years.

As for grammar, etc. I'm a foreigner so naturally, I make a lot of mistakes but I agree with Gillo that one can tell that in this fandom grammar is taken seriously and I love that. Most writers are born in a time, where grammar and spelling mattered and we're also mostly in our 40s or older (I think) which means that there's a little more meat to the stories.


I have spent weeks reading countless of very wonderful fics and I thank those of you who are still active and who created those stories.

It's a shame that so many recced fics have been removed, though.


Well, take care and thank you all of you for your love of the BtVS and Angel fandoms. X X X X

[shapinglight]

And thank you so much for all your wonderful f/b from the last week or so. Also, your comment didn't contain a single grammatical error that I saw. Your English is wonderful.

And don't worry. Maybe the fact that so many of us are older is a sign that we'll be around for a while yet. Older people do get set in their ways, after all. :)

[bogwitch.livejournal.com]

I think the Buffyverse is the only fandom that wants me to write fanfic. Everwhere else basically ignores my existence. Though I suppose if might help if I wrote a popular pairing.

[shapinglight]

Though I suppose if might help if I wrote a popular pairing.

That usually helps, it's true. Apart from that, though, I (obviously) don't know enough about other fandoms to know how they work. The Buffyverse fandom used to be quite clique-y. Maybe others are too? I also think that maybe the demographic of other fandoms is younger, which makes them less inclined to leave comments.

Anyway, yes. We want you to write fanfic.

[treadingthedark.livejournal.com]

Strictly a reader, but I read a lot and I still have new fics come up on my friends list to read every single day.

Fic has given me so much pleasure over the years. There may be less of it, but so far I still manage to come away satisfied after my nightly visits to Livejournal.

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

I love that you are having this experience! \o/

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

Our fandom is undead! *rimshot*

Here's what I said over on lostboy_lj's post:

Buffy has all the elements of Greek mythology, and people are still fooling around with those stories, amirite? Gods, monsters, puny humans doing what they can to survive, prosper and/or find happiness. It's a rare fictional world that is so deep and broad, with comedy and tragedy aplenty.

Like Barb said, some people are here for the 'verse. Joss hit on something classic, IMO, even if it is "just" a TV show. There's a reason why Buffy Studies is a real thing.

So yeah, there are definitely things to say, and I'm perfectly fine with novel and interesting, but you people keep coming up with meaningful into the bargain. Hooray!

I'm actually quite optimistic for the fandom at the mo', since I don't seem to be able to keep up with all the shiny new things that keep popping up. I mean, c'mon! estepheia just finished something amazing! There are several new folks I'm excited about! I might even get to my WIP! Okay, that brought me back down to earth.

All that said, I do wonder if every individual writer will always have something to say, and by "every" I mean me. I've got a couple of things part-way there, but then I think...maybe that'll be the last one. But then somebody will ask for prompts or there is a discussion that sparks something, and I'm off again, on a new adventure.

I have no desire to write in any other fandom, aside from my odd crossovers. Though I'm leaving the door open to all Joss-work when I say "fandom".

Your icon missed a golden opportunity! It should read, "Back, ADVERBIAL FIEND!" exclaimed Wes, anxiously.

[shapinglight]

I must get over to lostboy_lj and read his post. His meta is always so interesting.

And I love your entire comment. You're right that BtVS has mythic elements. Joss set out to create a cultural icon and he did. Nothing else he does will ever quite compare, I think.

And with you on yay!ing about the return of estepheia.

Also, re: your WIP, I thought we had a deal?

[ex_peasant441]

I think that over the years you have tweaked your characterisations, suppressing the bits you don't like and bringing forward the things you do, so you now have a set of characters that are very well suited to what you personally like. By comparison any other set of characters will not be as good a fit for your preferences and thus you aren't inclined to write about them.

[shapinglight]

This is true, but surely that makes me complacent.

Which, of course, is only a bad thing if I want to do more than just write fanfic.

[lyr]

I think there are plenty of new stories worth telling, and plenty of meaningful things left to say. I don't think there's anything wrong with you still wanting to engage with the Buffy and Angelverse. Part of my own heart will always live there, and as multifannish as I am, I can't imagine a time when I will leave it completely.

[shapinglight]

:)

That's very good to know. I wish I was multifannish in that sense, but I'm not.

Not to worry, though, I still enjoy lots of other shows, even if I've no urge to fanfic them.

[spikesjojo.livejournal.com]

You know, I suspect the fact that so many of us responded may mean fandom is still alive and well **hug**

[shapinglight]

Yep. It's not dead yet, that's for sure.