Spangel Ficcish/fanon trope/Buffy comics navel gazing.

[shapinglight]

This sort of post (ie. where people talked about their own fics) were quite common back in the day, now not so much. But whatever. I was bored at work yesterday and this was the result. Also, I'm procrastinating about starting the next story in my Spike/Giles season 7 series.

Recently, someone was kind enough to read my 2006 fic (boy, that long ago!) Vampire Winter, and leave feedback. When answering their comment, I got sucked into re-reading the story myself.



I've been meaning to re-read it for a while, actually, because I think I should try to put some of my better fics up on Ao3, and at the time people seemed to like Vampire Winter so it's a possible candidate.

I held off the re-read, though, because I was sure I would find the story highly embarrassing now -badly written, full of amateurish mistakes, telling rather than showing, etc, etc. My writing style has changed a little since then, I think (hopefully got better, but who knows? I am still an amateur, after all). In actual fact, the re-read wasn't too painful. The word 'however' was overused (as it is in a lot of my early fics), but not to the point where it was driving me crazy.

The character voices were all right too, in particular Angel and Spike. It was my first ever attempt to write from Buffy's POV, and - yes, I can see my Buffy's not show Buffy. On the other hand, I don't think she's an impossible extrapolation of show Buffy.

What did strike me very forcibly, though, is that I wrote a Bangel fic. At the time, I didn't intend to. I meant to write a Spuffel fic (to use the convenient shorthand), without the threesome sex (which I could never imagine happening). In other words, Buffy was meant to be in love with both vampires. But I can see I failed to produce that. Buffy in the story loves both vampires, but is only in love with Angel. In the story, that doesn't actually matter too much because Spike and Angel are also in love with each other, though neither of them would ever admit it.

Where was I going with this? Oh yes.

A lot of time - and a lot of very bad comics - have passed since then. The very bad comics have led me to think that my description of Buffy's feelings for Spike in Vampire Winter were over generous, and my description of Spike's and Angel's feelings for each other downright risible.

Fine, it's fanfic. It doesn't have to pay any attention to the stupid comics and can, if it wants, stick with the long-established Spangel fic fanon tropes, which mostly involve seeing a familial connection of some variety or other between Angel and Spike, which leads at some point to some serious shagging. When AtS ended, for me at least, those tropes still worked pretty well. Okay, I knew that wasn't quite what I was seeing on screen, but again, it wasn't an impossible extrapolation.

Now, though, it kind of is? Leaving aside the IDW Angel comics, which are closer in feel to AtS, I think (please note I'm not saying they're better comics, just that - perhaps because Joss wasn't really involved with them - they stuck closely to established models), it's clear from what little interaction Spike and Angel have had up to now in the Buffy comics, and despite that Joss-penned Always Darkest web comic - which now I think of it, takes a similar premise to Vampire Winter (Angel and Spike are more interested in each other than they are in Buffy) and turns it into a nightmare - Joss sees them as mainly love-rivals for Buffy and the only real connection between them is that they're both vampires with souls.

They aren't family at all.

So anyway, to get back to Vampire Winter, I found the bits of it I didn't like weren't that it was badly written (it was fine, really), or that it was a Bangel fic (I haven't read much Bangel fic, but I think I wrote the 'ship okay), but more that it expects you to believe something about Spike and Angel that I just don't believe any more myself.

A pity.

Could explain, though, how when I wrote something for rekindlespangel recently, I had to set it one thousand years in the future.

Thoughts? And not specifically about Vampire Winter or the rotten old comics, and how they can spoil perfectly good fanfic tropes for some people (ie. me), but more along the lines of, are there any fanfic tropes you used to love, but which now tend to make you cringe when you come across them in other people's work? And if so, why the change?

Comments

[kikimay]

I think it's pretty normal to change opinions and I also went through the same process with my fanfics. I also started with a very close-family like relationship between Angel and Spike and, rewatching all the series and re-analyzing things, I just think it was mostly fanon-influenced than actually canon. Funny enough, I think I'm more Spuffy now than years ago, when the Spuffy was a "main ship" in the Buffyverse. I guess it's understandable.

[shapinglight]

Funny enough, I think I'm more Spuffy now than years ago, when the Spuffy was a "main ship" in the Buffyverse. I guess it's understandable.

I am too, and that, I'm afraid, is as a reaction to the comics. When the show ended, I was actually more of a Spangel 'shipper and found it much easier to face up to the fact that Buffy probably felt about the two vampires more the way she does in Vampire Winter than she does in exclusively Spuffy fics. I still don't believe she meant what she said in Chosen. Never have. On the other hand, I'm way more willing to pretend I do believe it and write fic that takes it as a given.

Hmm. The comics really have had a profound effect on me as a fic writer, haven't they? They've skewed my reading of the 'verse completely.

[sueworld2003.livejournal.com]

I haven't got much original to say about this except can I say I adored Vampire Winter. The last few lines always makes me tear up.

[shapinglight]

Thanks, Sue. It's certainly better on re-reading than I was expecting.

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

I get what you're saying. I found myself unable to write Angel for years after the comics started going off the rails bigtime - not necessarily because I thought his character[assassin]isation there made sense, but more because I knew my readers would be aware of it, and would be aware that I would be aware of it, which meant I was aware that they were aware that I was aware etc and there's no way to write fic that wouldn't in some way be read in light of the comics. And that is tricky.

That said, I want to think that happens in the comics stays in the comics. Whatever Joss' (or, by this point, Scott Allie's) opinion of the characters is now, almost 10 years after the series ended, shouldn't have any bearing on what happened in the series and how one reads it. Though it is hard to ignore the elephant in the room.

As for your question... hmmm. When I look back at my earliest fics, I don't think there's any tropes that I've completely abandoned, but I'm more aware that they are tropes by now, for better or worse. There's some early stuff that makes me cringe because of how seriously it takes itself - not that I have a problem with serious fic, but if you (general you) are going to use a standard plot, you need to justify why the story falls into a standard plot. Otherwise it just feels a bit lazy and dishonest - "This is my hurt/comfort fic", "This is my wish fulfillment fic", "This is my And Then They Had Sex fic", "This is my grief fic", etc. If people have already read that particular trope 5,000 times already, you need to bring something slightly fresh to the table if you're going to ask them to take it seriously.

[shapinglight]

I found myself unable to write Angel for years after the comics started going off the rails bigtime -

Whereas I could only write him as a huge dick (or dickhead). But then you're a much better person than me. ;)

Whatever Joss' (or, by this point, Scott Allie's) opinion of the characters is now, almost 10 years after the series ended, shouldn't have any bearing on what happened in the series and how one reads it. Though it is hard to ignore the elephant in the room.

Yes, it's tricky - though of course always worth remembering that at this point, it is more Allie's opinion, (though, unlike us, his opinions are influenced by direct contact with Joss. Yeah, that's a big sticking point. I find myself thinking, is this really what Joss thought about so-and-so all the time? But it's so lame!)

To get back to my point, I find it easier to ignore the comics in terms of situations/events. Less easy to ignore when it comes to the relationships (not just romantic ones).

I don't think there's any tropes that I've completely abandoned, but I'm more aware that they are tropes by now, for better or worse.

I suppose I should say the same, since I still do occasionally write Spangel. But it's different to the way I used to write it. I struggle to make it believable even to myself.

If people have already read that particular trope 5,000 times already, you need to bring something slightly fresh to the table if you're going to ask them to take it seriously.

Yes, very well put.

[slaymesoftly.livejournal.com]

Not sure I can improve on your answer, so I may steal it quote you unless I come up with something better for me before I respond to the main post. :)

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

but more that it expects you to believe something about Spike and Angel that I just don't believe any more myself.

For me, I think it's not so much that it isn't there (though I do think it got exaggerated by fandom), but that it's one of many things the writers of the comics just disregarded because it didn't fit the story they were ass-pulling. It's not even confined to ships. I really can't take the Angel-Connor storyline seriously if I take the comics into it. Same with Buffy-Dawn and the characterizations there-in.

I suppose that's why my desire to read fic and meta died with the comics. I lost the ability to believe the things I loved were as important to the author as they were to me.

[shapinglight]

For me, I think it's not so much that it isn't there (though I do think it got exaggerated by fandom), but that it's one of many things the writers of the comics just disregarded because it didn't fit the story they were ass-pulling.

Yes. As I say, I think writing Spangel the way a lot of fans used to write it was a stretch when the show was on, but it was a stretch you could cope with if you squinted a bit. Post-season 8 (I don't count season 9 because Joss just isn't involved any more), it's next to impossible. Basically, for it still to fly, you have to pretend the comics don't exist.

I'm sorry the comics ruined things for you that much. There are still some great fics and meta around. A lot of them do rely on ignorance of the comics, though.

[thismaz.livejournal.com]

Reading your post and the comments, it does sound like I was wise to avoid the comics completely. For me, canon ended with the end of AtS series 5 and I am happy with that.

[shapinglight]

Yes, you're probably better off.

But not reading the comics doesn't mean you might not have changed your mind about some fanon tropes over the years. Any thoughts on that?

[kathyh]

I loved "Vampire Winter". Not just the relationships but the whole atmosphere of it really worked for me.

I'm afraid I'm like infinitewhale in that the comics twisted the characters so much that I no longer felt I knew them and the wish to read fic about them started to die. I stopped reading the comics, but now quite quickly enough.

[shapinglight]

:(

That's so sad. I hadn't realised either of you felt that way.

Myself, I've had to hive off the having-read-the-comics part of me from the writes-fanfic part of me completely. Even then there's sometimes some cross contamination, which is usually when my evil twin writes something in which Angel is a massive dick (though has so far managed to resist writing anything in which Buffy is a blithering idiot).

[felisblanco.livejournal.com]

The more I read about the comics the happier I am that I gave up on them on the first few issues. I don't care that they're Whedon approved, they feel less connected to the tv shows than badly written crack fic. I'd rather keep fond memories of the real thing.

[shapinglight]

Given some of the comments here, I'm sure you made the right decision. They seem to have ruined things for a lot of people.

[slaymesoftly.livejournal.com]

My first response (to the actual question) was to use beer_good_foam's answer because I think it fits how I feel about my early use of tropes:
As for your question... hmmm. When I look back at my earliest fics, I don't think there's any tropes that I've completely abandoned, but I'm more aware that they are tropes by now, for better or worse. There's some early stuff that makes me cringe because of how seriously it takes itself - not that I have a problem with serious fic, but if you (general you) are going to use a standard plot, you need to justify why the story falls into a standard plot. Otherwise it just feels a bit lazy and dishonest - "This is my hurt/comfort fic", "This is my wish fulfillment fic", "This is my And Then They Had Sex fic", "This is my grief fic", etc. If people have already read that particular trope 5,000 times already, you need to bring something slightly fresh to the table if you're going to ask them to take it seriously.

The only thing I would add to that, is that after I'd been writing for awhile, I found it humbling to realize - after I 'd posted something I thought was brilliant and "OMG why hasn't anyone thought of this before?" - that I had written a trope, and a common one at that. I've lost count of how many times that happened!

I don't know that I've changed my mind about any of the tropes, so much as I've definitely learned (I think!) to recognize that's what I'm doing and to try to make the story entertaining enough that it will be enjoyable to those who aren't sick of that trope. Some are easier to do that with than others, obviously.

It doesn't feel as necessary to me to justify Buffy's feelings at this point because anyone who's reading my stuff is probably already there. Preaching to the choir, so to speak. :) Only when I'm writing something that strays from the Spuffy format do I work at making the pairing or non-pairing believable.

The comics (as long as we've wandered onto that subject) don't turn me off as much as they do most people. I mean, I began writing fanfic to "fix" the things I didn't like about season six. The comics just give me more room (and bunnies) for fixing things. :) I treat them as a way of keeping up with the characters I like, so that I can use fic to fix their problems. :) I don't feel any strong obligation to use them when I'm writing fic set after the shows ended, but I'm not averse to using things from them to write a different version of events. I use as much or as little as I need in my imaginary futures, and once in while, I use the entire comics world to set something that, just as when the show was on, will become wildly AU with the next issue. Twisting the source material is twisting the source material - no matter what form the material takes.

[shapinglight]

I don't know that I've changed my mind about any of the tropes, so much as I've definitely learned (I think!) to recognize that's what I'm doing and to try to make the story entertaining enough that it will be enjoyable to those who aren't sick of that trope. Some are easier to do that with than others, obviously.

To be honest, I think there are quite a few tropes to do with Spangel fic that I was a bit sick of - or just found silly - before I even began writing fanfic, which wasn't until after AtS ended anyway. So my disillusion with the tropes of Spangel fanfic has been an ongoing thing for a long time. The comics definitely accelerated the process, though.

Speaking of which, we have of course had this conversation before, so I can only say what I said then, which is that I can't really conceive of ficcing them even to 'fix' them (I don't think they're fixable anyway), because that, to my mind, gives them a legitimacy I'm just not prepared to grant them.

I accept that other people feel differently, though.

[ex_peasant441]

Joss doesn't like the idea of male role models so the only way he can envisage male relationships is as rivalry. I assume some deep trauma in his childhood explains this.

ETA: I'm aware that doesn't really answer your questions, but it was what occurred to me while reading your post.

[shapinglight]

Joss doesn't like the idea of male role models so the only way he can envisage male relationships is as rivalry. I assume some deep trauma in his childhood explains this.

I have no idea about Joss's childhood traumas, but doesn't Captain Tightpants from Firefly rather negate your theory?

It's possibly that he doesn't, but since I've never been able to get through all the episodes of Firefly, I wouldn't know.

[chasingdemons.livejournal.com]

First of all, I adored Vampire Winter. I read it before I even came on LJ, and I was so entranced. Funny, but I remember it as Spangel. Hee. Am I thinking of the wrong story? Or do I just see everything through a Spangel lens? I remember Buffy as having a minor role. Maybe I am just all mixed up. It wouldn't be the first time. :-)

I have seen several posts lately about tropes. I feel conflicted about this because they seem to veer ever so slightly to a place where certain tropes are identified as cliché, unevolved, old hat, or wrong. Either in the post or the comments. With a certain air of superiority by the poster or commenter. I am not saying I see that in your post at all, Deb. I understand it's just an interesting discussion or reflection. I just think about the writers who may have made the very unfortunate decision to say that Buffy smelled like vanilla or some such thing.

So here is my answer about tropes.

I don't give a flying fuck about canon. I wish I never had to hear that word again. What does it even mean really? Is the only true canon an exact retelling of an episode? If not, who decides where the canon line gets drawn? Why can't everyone just go where their imagination takes them without judgment and classification?

I used to like wheelchair!Spike stories. I probably still would but they never get written anymore.

I used to be convinced that Angel was Spike's sire. I can go with the flow on that now.

I used to like the whole sire/childe thing. Less so now.

I used to just melt from a good Spuffy story. Now I find romantic Spuffy stories troubling because I don't believe she loved him either.

I used to read some stories where Spike was really childish. But I'm not so much into that anymore.

I will always love hurt/comfort. Yeah, I know it's the biggest gimmick ever, but I'm in for a penny and a pound.

I used to be fine with Angel being unusually romantic, but not so much now.

I can be touched by a story even if it contains tropes that I normally wouldn't be drawn to. That being said, I have seen a change in the "tropes" used over the years. I miss the older stories.

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

Here's a new wheelchair!Spike story that's recent, for your enjoyment:

Heartless by Foxinator

We do what we can...

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

Tropes? I probably have selective memory, but I can't think of any that I used to ♥ LOVE ♥ that I now DETEST. I know I used to read a lot of Spander fic and claiming fic, which I don't so much any more. It's not that I was ever enthusiastic about either. It was hard to avoid the claim stuff when going through the archives, and some of it was good in spite of hewing to the trope, imo. I've never shipped Spander, but I did like some authors' take on those characters, and some of the "imbalance of power" pr0n was pretty damned porntastic. Actually, I'm probably less willing to slog through lengthy sex scenes of any pairing these days, unless there is something important going on characterization-wise. Or the dialogue is magnificent. (Nauti does have a new story up, after all. \o/)

My beef with the comics is pretty much down to Buffy's characterization, with a side of Dawn's characterization in places. At first it was quelling, but after awhile it was just so far off-base that I now feel justified in ignoring it completely. If they aren't even going to try to have things make emotional sense, then fuck 'em.

If anything, the comics have made me less willing to forgive bashing in fic. As you know, I've always thought Angel tended to the dickish side, but that was highlighted to the exclusion of anything else about his character in the comics, even in S9, as far as I can tell. What happened to the "you should be able to see the viewpoint of every character, even the bad guys. Especially the bad guys!"? I don't know what's motivating hardly any of the characters anymore. FWIW, I think Angel is reaching out to Spike in his comic, so maybe you'll get something to reinvigorate your ship!

[shapinglight]

Actually, I'm probably less willing to slog through lengthy sex scenes of any pairing these days, unless there is something important going on characterization-wise.

Same here. I even skip sex scenes when re-reading my old stuff, because they bore (and sometimes embarrass) me. I'm told this is something that just happens.

At first it was quelling, but after awhile it was just so far off-base that I now feel justified in ignoring it completely. If they aren't even going to try to have things make emotional sense, then fuck 'em.

I don't know if you know better, but my impression is that Scott Allie really doesn't like Buffy much at all. As for Dawn, the Dark Horse PTBs (and possibly Joss too) just seem to think the fans all hate her so it doesn't matter what they do with her. My two cents anyway.

If anything, the comics have made me less willing to forgive bashing in fic. As you know, I've always thought Angel tended to the dickish side, but that was highlighted to the exclusion of anything else about his character in the comics, even in S9, as far as I can tell.

Well, it was, but not on purpose. It seems to have happened accidentally, and now Dark Horse are in full-on denial mode about it, which brings its own frustrations.

FWIW, I think Angel is reaching out to Spike in his comic, so maybe you'll get something to reinvigorate your ship!

What makes you think this?

I had wondered if Dark Horse might decide to go for an Angel and Spike title in 'season 10', given that they clearly don't know what to do with Spike and snarky, idiot younger brother Spike is easier to write than unrequited lover Spike.

That said, if Angel is made to eat the requisite amount of crow (is that the expression?) and never written as morally superior to Spike ever again, my 'ship could be invigorated. ;)

I take your point about bashing fics, though. I've never really liked them anyway.

[shylahmask.livejournal.com]

I don't read the Buffy comics, though I am a Lynch/Urru fan, so did read some of the AtS ones. I am definitely a only-the-show-is-my-canon girl. And the hints of familial connection between Angel and Spike in the show were enough for me -- though I do notice (usually in a negative way) when fanon intensifies this connection.

I think that over time I've become less forgiving of certain characterizations of Spike in fic, whereas years ago, I could do with a wider range. Likewise with bashing -- I loathe it more strongly than I used to, especially if the character the author wants to ship with Spike is randomly uncharacteristically sympathetic while others are intensified in their antagonism.

I, too, have major cringe-fests any time I go back to read my fics. (And I have these cringe-fests while writing, and editing...) Of course, I was 17 when I started writing/posting in the Buffyverse... Actually, I think Spangel was a lot less believable to me back then than it is now. Funny, that, considering my narrowing of preferences in other areas.

Though, my own writing still tends to veer towards gen, and my strategy to get to hints of Spangel seems to be to have Spike undergo some kind of deep trauma (ahem, as if that isn't my strategy in every fic, for any reason). The point being there, that maybe I don't really truly believe their as-left-in-show-canon selves could get closer either? At least, not without one or both of them fundamentally shaken in a particular way. But then, that seems to be something that also occurs in television shows. So, I'd say I still believe it, if it's written properly.

Anyway, I've no interest in the Buffy comics. And they're quite accessible for me if I'd ever wanted to peek at them, because I have a comic buff friend who owns them all and absolutely loves them. But it certainly seems they wouldn't be my cup of tea!

[shapinglight]

I think that over time I've become less forgiving of certain characterizations of Spike in fic, whereas years ago, I could do with a wider range. Likewise with bashing -- I loathe it more strongly than I used to, especially if the character the author wants to ship with Spike is randomly uncharacteristically sympathetic while others are intensified in their antagonism.

I think I can't really have read much in the way of bashing fic. Well, unless you count fics where Angel is written as a ginormous dick. But in the cases I'm thinking of, that's not so much bashing as a kink the author enjoys writing. It's awfully easy to do, actually.

Of course, I was 17 when I started writing/posting in the Buffyverse...

Yes, you were very young, but your writing was pretty mature (by which I don't just mean it was X-rated).

Funny, that, considering my narrowing of preferences in other areas.

Could you elaborate on this when you have the time? What things did you tolerate that you now can't?

Also, I should definitely stick to your resolution and avoid the comics. IMO, they aren't worth the grief.

[missus-grace.livejournal.com]

That's why I'm not sure I can ever publish any of my early fic. It's all tropes, bb. Claiming fic, Pregnant!Buffy, Hero!Spike - I've got it all.

The really good authors who did it all in the beginning - I can still read that fic because it was first and I remember it being first. Plus, they are fabulous authors. If someone writes stereotypically these days, I mostly skip it. The best authors are keeping it new and fresh. Sorry if this comment is incoherent - I'm a bit sleepy, but I think about this topic often.

[shapinglight]

That's why I'm not sure I can ever publish any of my early fic. It's all tropes, bb. Claiming fic, Pregnant!Buffy, Hero!Spike - I've got it all.

Well, it's not really that you include them but what you do with them that counts. That's the consensus here, I think.

Your comment isn't incoherent at all, btw, but very interesting. I'm glad I'm not the only person who thinks about this stuff.

[3hours.livejournal.com]

I am happily comics ignorant. Well, mostly. I deliberately don't read them, but I am often exposed to friends complaining about this or that characterization/stoyline so I have some vague ideas about what goes on. Which only strenghtens my decision to ignore them, really :D

The first thing that comes to mind trope-wise is claim fics. I used to love them when I first started plowing through fanfics (all of one year ago, I am so new it hurts :() but now I've distanced myself a lot. It's not that I dislike the general idea and would never write it into one of my own fics, not at all. It's complete fanon of course (or imported/adopted from some other vampire fandom I guess), but the concept is nice and would be interesting to explore.

I just feel that it's handled very casually. I can no longer buy that it's something that would ever happen 'on accident' or that either Spike or Buffy would be willing to do something like that after being together merely a few days or a couple of weeks. To me, now, it's more of a 'something that they might do after having been together for a very long time' or 'something they might feel pressured to do due to a specific situation/plot after they have been together for some time'. I'd love to see someone take on the claim trope like that.

[shapinglight]

Which only strenghtens my decision to ignore them, really :D

Yes, I should stick to that, if I were you. It's too late for me.

Re: claiming fics, as I've said to other people on this post, I'm aware they exist, especially in Spuffy and Spander fics (though I think they exist in Bangel fics too - have vague memories of fics where Angel bites Buffy and shouts, "Mine!") but have never consciously read one.

I can see why the trope appeals, though. Maybe a good way to approach it would be that it's sort of the vampire equivalent of marriage and only to be entered into after a lot of serious thought.

But I expect that's been done many times.

[rahirah]

Huh. I always saw the VW triangle as being much more about Bangel and Spangel than about Spuffy. At the time I remember being a tad grumpy about it, because I prefer to see Spike get some actual love in fic as well as sex. However, I didn't then and don't now think you were being over-generous to Buffy. Even in the very bad comics, I think she has some sort of positive feeling towards Spike - it may be no more than a certain degree of physical attraction and a willingness to depend on him for emotional support when he's around, but it's not absolutely nothing. VW is a heck of a lot closer to how I see canon Buffy than a lot of Spuffy fic.

But even if I thought canon Buffy did feel absolutely nothing at all, I think that it's perfectly legitimate, if one's writing a canon-based AU, to make, as you call it, an extrapolation of a character. I don't think that there's only one possible set of choices and reactions that a character can make, and if we base a story on the premise that one day Buffy turned left rather than right, then every subsequent choice she makes will inevitably lead her down different paths than the ones she took in canon.

I like Spangel when it's closer to the way it was portrayed in AtS S5 - if there's a family relationship, it's mainly one of sibling rivalry. I don't see the father/son dynamic that so many Spangel authors are fond of much at all - it's there kinda-sorta if I squint, but I'm not inclined to squint too hard. I would not be awfully surprised if Christos Gage does something towards restoring that dynamic in Angel & Faith, but even if he doesn't, I think the fact that the comics have been SO bad makes me feel that... I shouldn't blame the characters for the horrible way they've been written, if that makes any sense. Yeah, I do see the comics as canon for as long as Joss says they are, but moments of WTF despair aside, I don't feel that I'm bound to make the characters do the things they did in canon. As long as I can step back to the last clean save, as it were, and make that plausible extrapolation, I'm good.

(I can't really think of any tropes I used to love and now can't stand... I've never really been a very tropey reader, I guess? Or rather, the tropes I like tend to be things like "amnesia as a vehicle for self-discovery" which are pretty mainstream and tame.)

[shapinglight]

I always saw the VW triangle as being much more about Bangel and Spangel than about Spuffy

Yes, I can't think why I didn't see it at the time. I suppose Spangel was just more important to me than Spuffy back then. In retrospect, it's no wonder the few Bangel 'shippers who read the story liked it so much.

Even in the very bad comics, I think she has some sort of positive feeling towards Spike - it may be no more than a certain degree of physical attraction and a willingness to depend on him for emotional support when he's around, but it's not absolutely nothing.

True, though I like to think VW Buffy wouldn't be as cruel as to say so. Comics Buffy made it pretty clear that's all she wanted him for.

if there's a family relationship, it's mainly one of sibling rivalry. I don't see the father/son dynamic that so many Spangel authors are fond of much at all

I'm not sure I ever really saw, even if I squinted. The difference is, though, that I used to enjoy that dynamic and would write it anyway. Now, I don't enjoy it.

I think Gage will probably write Spangel as knockabout buddy comedy, like Brian Lynch's two part Angel and Spike at SDCC story, which Gage said he loved. If there's any mention of the fact that the last time they met, Angel tried to kill Spike, it'll be shrugged off as just something that they do (which is actually not unreasonable). What gets me, though, is the relationship as last written by Joss - the end of season 8 - is really not a relationship at all. There isn't one. They just hate each other because they both love Buffy. That's had an effect on me, have to say, that nothing written by someone who isn't Joss quite can.

As long as I can step back to the last clean save, as it were, and make that plausible extrapolation, I'm good.

I can still do this to some extent, obviously, or I'd have stopped writing fanfic altogether.

[lynnenne]

I stopped reading the BtVS comics at issue 3, so I feel able to cheerfully ignore them. I keep up on the plotlines by reading reviews on LJ, but I'm not invested in the story at all.

I loved the "Angel: After the Fall" comics and have written a few fics based on them, but they stayed much closer to my interpretation of the show than the Buffy comics have.

I can't watch Angel and Spike in any scene together and NOT see a familial relationship. AtS Season 5 was what really cemented it for me. I'm a Connor fan, and the Spike-Connor parallels in S5 were glaringly obvious to me. This is most notable in "Why We Fight," in which Angel has not one, but TWO Connor-substitutes. Lawson, like Connor before him, tells Angel that "I'm nothing, because of you," and Angel must kill him in order to save him. Spike, despite (or perhaps because of) his unfavoured status, ends up saving himself - and thus is the only son that Angel gets to keep. The episode ends with Angel and Spike together in sunlight - one of many images of them in S5 standing shoulder to shoulder.

(Also, Angel totally took that dive for Spike. :)

I keep meaning to write a meta about that episode. Maybe this will inspire me to get around to it.

[shapinglight]

I stopped reading the BtVS comics at issue 3, so I feel able to cheerfully ignore them>,?i>

You're very wise. I wish I had done that, but it's too late now, unless someone invents a forgetting potion. ;)

but they stayed much closer to my interpretation of the show than the Buffy comics have.

Yes, they did. I think this is probably because, Joss only being distantly involved, they didn't dare make any major changes. Either that, or they were wise enough to realise that people buying a comic based on a TV show want to read something that reminds them of that TV show, not something totally different.

I can certainly see the Spike/Connor parallels, but I can't help having the nasty nagging feeling that Joss himself doesn't see them. Also, the father/son dynamic between Angel and Spike just doesn't work for me any more. I can't really deal any more with an Angel who is somehow superior morally, or in wisdom, if you like.

And a lot of that is down to the comics. Oh well.

I hope you write your meta.

(Also, Angel totally took that dive for Spike. :)

Well, he definitely checks out Spike's ass when Spike leaves the submarine. :)