Game of Thrones season 4 ep 3 (the clueless about the books POV)

[shapinglight]

Just re-appearing very briefly with a GoT review.

Spoilers behind cut.



I haven't managed to get online all weekend, and have only had time for a very brief look at LJ. That was long enough, however, to see that some people on my flist were very upset by the Jaime/Cersei scene in this episode.

I don't really share your upset because - despite all the Jaime/Brienne scenes in the previous season (which I loved)- I am just not as invested in Jaime as I am/was in Spike (don't think I'll ever let myself get that invested in a fictional character again, it hurts too much when they are made to do bad things/bad things are done to them). That said, I don't understand the reasoning behind making the scene in question so different in character to how it apparently was in the books (wouldn't know as have not read past book 1). Having incestuous sex next to the dead body of your murdered son is bad enough without making it non-consensual (at least to start with) sex on top of that.

I wonder if the showrunners thought they could get away with it because they think everyone hates Cersei?

Probably.

This incident apart, the scenes around Joffrey's corpse were some of the best in the episode. Tywin schooling Tommen in what it takes to be a good king and completely ignoring Cersei's remonstrance about how it was hardly the time or place was masterful (I felt genuinely sorry for Cersei), and most of the Cersei/Jaime scene was good too. It just went very bad at the end.

Boy, does that bring back horrible BtVS memories.

Elsewhere, Arya and the Hound are getting on like a house on fire (literally), but I think the Hound is right. He's far from the worst person roaming around Westeros. Yes, he stole from the poor farmer, but he didn't kill him, and he could have. I think Arya knew it too.

Granny Tyrell, meanwhile, has moved to the top of my list of suspects in the Who Killed Joffrey? sweepstakes. Maybe it's not so much Tywin who might have thought Joffrey too difficult to manage, but Granny Tyrell? Or maybe she was just too fond of Margaery to let her marry such an awful person? Who knows? All I know is, I still don't miss Joffrey one bit.

Up at the Wall, Jon Snow seems to be getting on slightly better with Ser Alliser Thorne, and Sam, trying to do the right thing by Gilly, seems to have ended up doing the wrongest thing he could possibly have done.

In the opposite direction, Dany continues to be awesome and the new Daario continues to not grate nearly as much. Am wondering, though, why, when Jorah features in an episode, the title credits list Iain Glen at the end, saying 'with Iain Glen.' Does that mean he's more important/less important? What?

No Theon stuff in this episode, thank f**K. Am still hopeful (not very, though) that Ramsay Bolton will bump into the cannibal Wildlings and get eaten.

That's it. Not sure when I'll be back again.

ETA: Just want to emphasise, I'm not minimising the upset other people are feeling. I understand how you feel all too well. So very sorry.

Comments

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

I'm quite pissed about this added rape. I really don't get, what's their problem with sex on this show?? First they cut most of the (quite important)sex scenes from the books (or for some reason turn them into rapes) and add a ton of stupid softporn sexposotion and now this.

I was wondering where they were going with bringing Jaime and Brienne back early, but they just seem to mess it up. In the books they meet again by Joff's corpse. The whole accusation about Jaime being too late from two eps ago makes way more sense of course at that place. In the books it is Jaime's POV. He has basically gone through hell to return to Cersei and realizes that he could care less about the son he just lost and that his connection to Cersei is gone. The next to corpse sex is a desperate and ultimately failing attempt to reconnect and icky as hell but it's no rape. And it makes no sense whatsoever for Jaime to rape her, non. It's completely pointless.

Rest of the ep was really good. But I really wish they'd leave it with the sex if they can't do it right. It was already weird in the very beginning when they had Drogo rape Daenerys and inserted Ros the sexposition whore.

[shapinglight]

First they cut most of the (quite important)sex scenes from the books (or for some reason turn them into rapes) and add a ton of stupid softporn sexposotion and now this.

I hadn't realised they'd actually missed sex scenes out (it seems incredible given the number of them there are in this show). Which were they?

The next to corpse sex is a desperate and ultimately failing attempt to reconnect and icky as hell but it's no rape. And it makes no sense whatsoever for Jaime to rape her, non. It's completely pointless.

To be honest, I don't think they were going for rape rape (if I can put it that way). I think we were supposed to think that by the end of the scene Cersei was a willing participant, no matter how it started.

The whole no really means yes thing, which of course is equally problematic.

On the other hand, I didn't have the impression that Jaime thought that. He was just going to do it anyway, so I suppose it was just rape.

I am sorry people were upset by it, but must admit that it hasn't changed how I feel about Jaime (I like him, but I don't at all think he's a nice or good person) nor did it feel out of character for Show! Jaime and Cersei.

It could well be that the scene will end up having a similar effect to the scene in the book, in that it will spell the end of their connection.

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

I hadn't realised they'd actually missed sex scenes out (it seems incredible given the number of them there are in this show). Which were they?

Mostly Tyrion and Shae, in the books they basically have sex all the time and their relationships really revolves around the intimacy. Since it's Tyrion's POV it is mostly about him finally feeling good about himself around someone. But I guess trying to depict someone who falls in love having sex was too unporny for the show.

To be honest, I don't think they were going for rape rape (if I can put it that way). I think we were supposed to think that by the end of the scene Cersei was a willing participant, no matter how it started.


Probably, but I think this whole no means yes idea really needs to go and why artificially insert it, when it was not there in the books?

I don't relate to the show characters as much as I do to the book characters so I don't really care so much, but I find it annoying and I feel a bit sorry for the Jaime people in fandom, because they are now basically in a "Seeing-Red" situation there.

ETA: The show writer weighed in now and said that it is meant to be consensual. Still, if they can't show but instead have to tell it's not really a good sign.

[shapinglight]

ETA: The show writer weighed in now and said that it is meant to be consensual. Still, if they can't show but instead have to tell it's not really a good sign.

No, though IMO it's still not as spectacular a FU as Spike's botched soul quest. I understand that for some people this will be enough to ruin the character for them, but for me how the scene ultimately works will depend somewhat on what happens next.

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

Granny Tyrell, meanwhile, has moved to the top of my list of suspects in the Who Killed Joffrey? sweepstakes.

I dunno, you'd think if it was her, she'd wait 24 hours; as she says, the Tyrells' position would have been even better if the marriage had been consummated (assuming it would have been, with Joffrey being... Joffrey). I thought it had to be Littlefinger as of this episode, though I guess it's possible that he'd given Dontos a standing order to get Sansa out of trouble if anything happened. Or rather when, I guess.

As for the Cersei/Jaime scene, I didn't have a huge problem with the scene itself, character-wise, but I'm really hoping they had a plot-related reason for changing the scene. If not, that's just all kinds of creepy.

I'm still not sure who's learning from who with Arya and the Hound. She's learning to be more of a psychopath, he's showing himself to be less of one.

And I'm really starting to like Oberon or whatever his name is. I'm guessing he's going to be the One Angry Juror in Tyrion's trial, I just hope they don't spend half the season on that alone.

[shapinglight]

I dunno, you'd think if it was her, she'd wait 24 hours; as she says, the Tyrells' position would have been even better if the marriage had been consummated (assuming it would have been, with Joffrey being... Joffrey).

You're right. :Gloom: There goes that theory.

And you are of course right that Littlefinger looks like a very good candidate given that he knew to spirit Sansa away just at that moment.

As for the Cersei/Jaime scene, I didn't have a huge problem with the scene itself, character-wise, but I'm really hoping they had a plot-related reason for changing the scene. If not, that's just all kinds of creepy.

This is pretty much my feeling too. The scene itself didn't surprise me at all where Show! Jaime and Cersei were concerned, but I would like to think it was changed so drastically from the book for a reason.

I think I understand why the Dany/Khal Drogo first sex was changed to a coercive rape scenario. That made sense to me. I hope this wasn't done just for the shock value.

And I'm really starting to like Oberon or whatever his name is. I'm guessing he's going to be the One Angry Juror in Tyrion's trial, I just hope they don't spend half the season on that alone.

Oh, I dunno. Could be fun. I'm pretty sure Shae will feature in the trial, btw. Probably as a witness of the prosecution.

[lyr]

Put me down for upset by that Jaime/Cersei scene. I mean, why did we need to go there? I get that we're going to diverge from book canon sometimes, but I don't get why this is one of the ways we need to do so.

Still loved Tyrion's scenes, though.

[shapinglight]

Yes, the Tyrion scene was great. I do hope Podric does what he was told and runs like hell.

[ex_peasant441]

Why on earth would he rape her? beyond the obvious fact that the show runners are sick.

Quick question - has it been even mentioned that Dany is wandering around freeing slaves with a man who was exiled from Westeross for slavetrading? I feel that should be an important issue for her - that or it reveals she doesn't actually care about slavery and it is all just politics.

Also, the main thing I keep thinking about Theon is in real life he would have to wear nappies, and has this been mentioned (maybe why he is now named Reek). (A fact, incidentally, that may explain why people always seem to be edging away from Lord Varys - he must smell rather.)

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

Quick question - has it been even mentioned that Dany is wandering around freeing slaves with a man who was exiled from Westeross for slavetrading? I feel that should be an important issue for her - that or it reveals she doesn't actually care about slavery and it is all just politics.

She doesn't know.

[ex_peasant441]

Bother. That makes her less interesting.

But thanks for explaining.

[shapinglight]

Already answered most of this on the phone.

I don't know if the showrunners are sick. If they are, this scene is one of the least sick of the sick things they've shown. The Theon stuff has it beaten by miles.

[ex_peasant441]

TV does seem to be getting more and more violent. And unfortunately it seems commonest in historical and fantasy dramas, which is cutting out what should be my favourite genre :(

I had to give up Rome and The Tudors because they were too violent and now I think I've given up GoT. I'm not even going to try Black Sails because I bet it's the same way.

Even Downton has rape and murder these days.


I only got through the Theon stuff by reciting the mantra my 5 year old nephew explained to me - 'It's only made up'. But as soon as you start doing that distancing from the story line you become so disengaged the whole thing breaks down.

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But as soon as you start doing that distancing from the story line you become so disengaged the whole thing breaks down.

That can happen, I suppose. I seem to be able to distance myself from some storylines (ie. Theon's) while being able to stay involved with others.

[caliente-uk.livejournal.com]

Other than the Jaime/Cersei rape scene, I really enjoyed this episode. Loved the interaction between Tywin (who is top of my list of suspects for killing Joffrey) and Tommen. He now has what he wanted, a King he can manipulate into doing exactly what he wants, which he would never have been able to do with Joffrey.

As for the Jaime/Cersei scene, I just don't understand why they felt the need to change it, especially as Jaime made such a big thing of protecting Brienne from the exact same thing last season. It just makes no sense in terms of Jaime's characterisation whatsoever! I'm not invested in Jaime enough (even though I do love him) for it to upset me in the same way that 'Seeing Red' did, but it's definitely brought back horrible memories of how horrendous it was to be a Spike fan after the AR aired. In fact, even now being a Spike fan can be like walking through a minefield, even after all these years!

I can understand why fans of book!Jaime, especially, are spitting nails over this, as they've been invested in his character for 13 years (or more) and are now going to have to deal with all the crap the rape of Cersei is going to bring. I mean, the relationship was f**ked up enough to begin with without adding rape into the mix!

[shapinglight]

I'm not invested in Jaime enough (even though I do love him) for it to upset me in the same way that 'Seeing Red' did, but it's definitely brought back horrible memories of how horrendous it was to be a Spike fan after the AR aired. In fact, even now being a Spike fan can be like walking through a minefield, even after all these years!

Yes, I feel the same.

I can understand why fans of book!Jaime, especially, are spitting nails over this, as they've been invested in his character for 13 years (or more) and are now going to have to deal with all the crap the rape of Cersei is going to bring. I mean, the relationship was f**ked up enough to begin with without adding rape into the mix!

It remains to be seen how it will be dealt with, of course. It wouldn't entirely surprise me if it's never referred to, even by Cersei, as rape. The director of the episode seems to think that she was willing by the end (have to admit, that's how it looked to me too), and though that's a dangerous cliche in itself that's probably how they'll take it going forward.

[sibilant.livejournal.com]

I'm not even going there with the non-consensual sex in front of your dead son via incest.

I was most concerned about poor Sansa in this (admittedly gripping) episode. When will this poor girl get a break? I know that in one sense it's a good thing she was spirited away, out of Cersei's reach. But OTOH, Littlefinger is the scariest man in Westeros.

I don't know whether my plan to read the books this summer is a good idea, given how fast and loose the show runners seem to be playing in interpreting the story ...

[shapinglight]

I was most concerned about poor Sansa in this (admittedly gripping) episode. When will this poor girl get a break? I know that in one sense it's a good thing she was spirited away, out of Cersei's reach. But OTOH, Littlefinger is the scariest man in Westeros.

Yep, and in this episode one of the creepiest. He could hardly keep his hands off her. Yuck!

I'm not sure about your book reading plan either. Can only say that I tried to read them myself, managed to finish book one after six months but didn't really enjoy it. I found GRRM's style pretty turgid, plus the silly, muddled up personal names seemed even sillier in print.

[mrs-underhill.livejournal.com]

I wonder if the showrunners thought they could get away with it because they think everyone hates Cersei?
But they went to great lengths to make us feel sorry for her, both here and in the scene with Tywin and Tommen next to Jeoffrey's dead body, as you noted.

She was treated like crap and virtually slapped by both Tywin and Jaimie, and for good reasons in both cases (she asked Jaimie to murder their brother!), but still we were supposed to feel sorry for her in both cases, I think.

Jaimie, in making her to have sex with him if she wanted something as huge as killing his brother from him, showed her that he no longer did her will unconditionally, that he's not blindly obeying her anymore.
In a twisted way, Jaimie forcing this issue - not forcing sex, as she eventually agreed to it - was establishing his independence from her, showing her that her power over him is over.

Scene with Tywin and Tommen was superb, and Olenna and Margeory were lovely as well, and I'm not even sure who are the suspects in the show, as they might play it differently from the books.

I'm only sure now who are not complicit in the murder - Sersei of course, but also Margeory, Sansa and Oberyn. The rest are fair game.

Oberyn and Tywin were great too, weren't they? And they finally showed that boy with no clothes, so I was more tolerant of the naked girls in that scene. :)

Oh, and the way New!Dario finished that guy was very cool, I even clapped and cheered a bit. Sorry. :)

And Jon Snow working together with Alister Thorne as the only two competent people left, out of necessity, was brilliant, better handled than in the books.

Sam dragging poor Gilly to that brothel in Mole's town was stupid though, and handled worse than in the books.

[shapinglight]

I agree the scenes with Cersei made her sympathetic, but IMO it was more the Tywin/Tommen scene, where she's left standing by Joffrey's corpse, the only one to mourn him and all too aware of it that made me pity her. She sort of lost me the minute she started raving about killing Tyrion.

Oh, and the way New!Dario finished that guy was very cool, I even clapped and cheered a bit. Sorry. :)

Ah, it's okay. I knew my 'ship was doomed right from the start (and if it had ever come to anything, there would have been hordes of people screaming about how disgusting it was). I'm just glad that if Jorah has to lose out, it's to someone who doesn't look like a 90s guitar band reject.

[mrs-underhill.livejournal.com]

but IMO it was more the Tywin/Tommen scene, where she's left standing by Joffrey's corpse, the only one to mourn him and all too aware of it that made me pity her.
In that scene she lost *both* of her boys. It's very symbolic how Tywin was leading Tommen away from her. It was a message from Tywin that she failed as a mother, that Tywin owned her and her children and she could do nothing about it.

As for wanting to kill Tyrion - she was sincerely convinced that he killed her son, so again I could have cut her some slack there. Mother's grief, and all.

[shapinglight]

As for wanting to kill Tyrion - she was sincerely convinced that he killed her son, so again I could have cut her some slack there. Mother's grief, and all.

Possibly, but I do think Tyrion is right in the latest episode when he said that even if the murderer confessed and gave Cersei irrefutable proof that Tyrion was innocent she'd still want him dead.