Game of Thrones Season 4 Ep 4 (the clueless about the books POV)

[shapinglight]

Just watched this, and...

Spoilers behind cut.



...I had already been spoilered for who killed Joffrey, but am pleased to say that I had sort of guessed anyway. I'd even applaud her, if it weren't for the fact that she seems happy for Tyrion to take the rap.

Other repercussions of the previous episode - well, there aren't any. Cersei obviously doesn't feel any more pissed off with Jaime than she did before, and Jaime obviously doesn't feel he's done anything extra for Cersei to be pissed off about. I suspected that would be the case when I read the director's view of what happened in that Cersei/Jaime scene from the previous episode.

We're supposed to just forget about it. And I have to admit, I pretty much have. Back to hating Cersei and back to 'shipping Jaime/Brienne (not, I think, that anything will come of that). I'm glad that Brienne took Podric with her, and glad that Bronn has shown some loyalty to Tyrion and not just offered his services to Tywin Lannister for a higher price, or whatever.

Elsewhere, Sansa may be naive but she clearly sees right through Littlefinger (does anyone not?). Littlefinger is really, really creepy. He could hardly keep his hands off her. The Margaery/Tommen scene was also slightly creepy, but needs must, I suppose. Better that Tommen cares for Margaery than just remaining completely under his mother's evil influence.

Other stuff: well, Dany is still freeing the slaves, and proving herself quite terrifying in the process, and Jon and Bran are having a lot of problems with the Night Watch, though Jon is unaware just how bad his troubles are (did Lord Bolton send that henchman of his to kill him? I've forgotten), and I suppose the people causing Bran trouble are only marginally Night Watch anyway.

Finally, it seems the White Walkers don't actually eat babies after all. Not quite sure what they do do to them, but whatever it is, it's weird. If they're turning all the babies into White Walkers (which is what it looked like) then does this mean all the White Walkers are Craster's sons? Surely not.

:Is confused:

Hmm. I don't seem to have a lot to say about this episode. Maybe I'm just tired.

Comments

[bogwitch.livejournal.com]

I'm so confused. I wish I hadn't read ahead, or perhaps have made more effort to read further, because I have no idea what belongs to what now!

[shapinglight]

I'm glad I haven't tried to read past book one. The show is confusing enough as it is.

[spikesjojo.livejournal.com]

Teeny tiny white walkers....yeah, not really sure of the why there.

Did I spoiler you - I am sorry.

They are really moving away from the book at this time - it's gonna be a little hard to predict what will happen. I will say I keep repeating to myself that Maergery is supposed to be 14 years old and not approaching 30.

[shapinglight]

Did I spoiler you - I am sorry.

No, it wasn't you.

I think Margaery in the show is probably meant to be in her early twenties, even though the actress looks older. Tommen is probably meant to be about fourteen.

Even so, that scene was definitely creepy.

[kerry-220.livejournal.com]

Probably my only strong reaction was to the news that Olenna is scarpering. Hope it's not too soon - she's been a delight.

From my own clueless POV I keep wondering why if everyone who matters knows Tyrion didn't kill Joffrey, why isn't someone keen to find the culprits? If it's only because no-one really cares and getting rid of Tyrion is a bonus then okey dokey.

[shapinglight]

From my own clueless POV I keep wondering why if everyone who matters knows Tyrion didn't kill Joffrey, why isn't someone keen to find the culprits? If it's only because no-one really cares and getting rid of Tyrion is a bonus then okey dokey.

I get the impression Tywin doesn't give a damn who killed Joffrey and is probably glad to be rid of him, even if he didn't do it himself. As for Cersei, like Tyrion said, even if she had irrefutable proof that the murderer was someone else she'd probably still insist Tyrion and Sansa did it. She just hates them.

[ex_peasant441]

She just hates them.

I didn't know that. Is it known why she hates them?

[shapinglight]

I'm not really clear why she hates Tyrion so much unless it's because their mother died when Tyrion was born and she blames him for it.

In fact, I think it probably is that. I vaguely remember a conversation about it between Tyrion and Cersei - possibly in season 2.

As for Sansa, I've no idea why she hates her so much. Possibly it's because of her brother Robb rebelling against Joffrey. Or maybe it's just because Sansa is pretty and naive and reminds Cersei of herself when she was younger.

:Is clueless:

[ex_peasant441]

does this mean all the White Walkers are Craster's sons? Surely not.

The tragic consequences of inbreeding.

(Or presumably we are supposed to believe other wildlings also worship the gods by leaving unwanted babies for them. Hopefully only Craster did the bit of sleeping with his daughters and rejecting all the sons/grandsons.)

Do you doubt Bronn's loyalty then? He has always seemed very loyal to Tyrion to me. Yes, there is some talk about only being a mercenary, but it comes across as just for form's sake to me - a reaction to the low social status of mercenaries by claiming to display their perceived faults as an act of defiant pride, rather than a statement of Bronn's actual feelings.

The stuff with Danny sounds disgusting - she really is a monster. I wish people would notice.

[shapinglight]

The stuff with Danny sounds disgusting - she really is a monster. I wish people would notice.

They're nearly all monsters. Dany is one of the more entertaining ones - unlike the Boltons, who are just horrible.

As for Bronn, I did doubt his loyalty, yes. I'm glad I was wrong.

[ex_peasant441]

I think there are quite a few who aren't monsters. Almost everyone up at the Wall except Crastor, all the Starks (although Aryia is changing), all the Lannisters except Joffrey and Jamie, pretty much all of the lower class people except teh odd jailor. Unfortunately they focus on the monsters for plot devices, so even when you have a non-monster in a pivotal position with real agency (for example Tywen Lannister) we don't really get to see much of what he is up to and so he doesn't seem to ever drive the plot even though in overview we know he is doing big important stuff. The one exception to that was Rob Stark, but the other non-monsters are only allowed a few inter-personal scenes or to be tormented by the monsters, not be the focus of non-monsterish political action.

[shapinglight]

I'm pretty thrown that you don't think Tywin Lannister is a monster but think Dany is.

[ex_peasant441]

Unless I'm forgetting something I don't think he's ever done anything monsterish. He's a hard nosed politician, so I get why you don't like him, but that is precisely why I do like him. He reminds me of Francis Urquart in House of Cards. I watched the scene between him and Tommon on YouTube and I think he is brilliant. I really liked the stuff with Aryia back in S2 as well. Since Tyrian became a bit naff in S3 I think Tywin is now my favourite character.

I don't dislike Dany because she's a monster though, I dislike her because she is a Mary Sue. Everything is falling in her lap not for rational reasons but because GRM wants it that way. But she is a monster as well.

[shapinglight]

Tywin Lannister has been the instigator of plenty of monstrous things (including, as referenced in the previous episode, the murder of the Targaryen royal family) so that, IMO, makes him as much a monster as Dany. It's not like she's done all these horrible things herself, she's just ordered others to do them. Tywin is no different.

I also don't think Dany is a Mary Sue, because it's plain to me that noble (or apparently so) as her freeing of the slaves is) her actions are becoming more and more troubling generally. She's not being shown as a 'good' person.

Why do you think Tyrion is 'naff'?

[ex_peasant441]

Oh okay, he's a monster too. We clearly aren't supposed to like him so I should hardly be surprised he has monsterish things to his name. I still do like him though.

I find Dany Mary-Sueish because everything falls at her feet. being a bad person is not typical Mary Sue I admit, but she still tweaks me as too much of a favourite with the writers and therefore stuff happens for her that never does for anyone else. And I worry that when she does horrible things we are supposed to approve because the people she does them to are 'bad' - and I always hate that.

Why do you think Tyrion is 'naff'?
Because he started being feeble and just drinking and drifting around being useless instead of trying to do anything. The thing that finally broke it for me was when he got drunk on his wedding day instead of supporting Sansa properly. If he actually tried to be decent maybe his father would like him - but he reacts like a spoilt teenager. 'Oh my daddy doesn't love me so I'm going to be an even bigger disappointment to him cos that'll Show Him'. I despise that sort of thing.

[shapinglight]

I suppose he could have tried harder, but I give him some slack due to what happened after the Battle of Blackwater. Plus, he's been quite supportive of Sansa since the wedding.

I don't think Tywin would like him whatever he did, though.

[ex_peasant441]

But Tywin does keep pushing him into responsible positions, like making him Hand and then making him Master of Coin. I think Tywin is desperate for Tyrion to sort himself out and become a moral and responsible person and then he will be willing to believe Tyrion is his own son. Every time Tyrion sleeps with whores it is implying that he is fundamentally an immoral being. And Tywin clearly thinks that shows he was indeed a bastard and hence that his wife betrayed him - so no wonder he gets upset and lashes out at Tyrion every time. If Tyrion ever starts behaving like a grownup I reckon he would have a very good relationship with his father. They have similar minds.

I'm glad to hear he is being nicer to Sansa. I just hope she has the courage to stand up to Baylish and not marry that loathesome twit Robin. But I presume I will be dissapointed and she will remain the wettest of wet blankets as she always has been.

[reginaspina.livejournal.com]

Bolton has sent Locke to find Bran and Rickon, assuming that they were going to Jon Snow at the Wall (which is, in fact, what Maester Luwin told them to do, so Bolton was right. He just doesn't know about Bran's visions.)

To be honest, I'm just as confused as everyone else about the entire thing at Craster's Keep/Baby/White Walkers-who-look-like-Loki's-birthfather … none of that's in the books :P

Also, I'm completely aboard the Grey Worm/Missandei 'ship now, they are lovely together. No doubt this means one of them will die horribly :P

[shapinglight]

Bolton has sent Locke to find Bran and Rickon, assuming that they were going to Jon Snow at the Wall (which is, in fact, what Maester Luwin told them to do, so Bolton was right. He just doesn't know about Bran's visions.)

Thanks. I had a vague memory of hearing a conversation about it, but I tend to try to blank out the Bolton scenes, plus my brain is like a sieve at the moment, and I'd forgotten.

Also, I'm completely aboard the Grey Worm/Missandei 'ship now, they are lovely together.

Me too. :)

No doubt this means one of them will die horribly :P

:( Is that what happens in the books?

[reginaspina.livejournal.com]

No, Missandei is nine years old in the books, and still hale and healthy as of the end of the last one :P (As is Grey Worm - healthy, that is, not nine!)

[shapinglight]

Well, hopefully they'll be allowed to have a nice romance.

:Re-reads what I've just written, falls about laughing:

This is GoT. They're doomed.

[mrs-underhill.livejournal.com]

Rewatched previous episode and was convinced even more that what happened with Jaimie and Sersei wasn't rape.
She was saying "it's not right" and responding to him in the end, and his "I don't care" was about "it's not right", i.e. to have sex in the Sept next to their son's body.

So Jainie and Sersei carrying on as usual was a non-issue for me in this episode.

Overall, I hated the added plotline with Craster's Keep, it wasn't in the books and looked like a pointless distraction.

But how much I loved Olenna and Margeory, again! Olenne did it to protect her granddaughter, I'm glad they made it so clear in the show. It was implied in the books as well.

As for Tyrion - Olenna didn't plan to make him a scapegoat, Sersei pointed at him and made him that. In the books it was implied that Tyrells were either setting up Oberyn with whom they had a feud, or were hoping it'd pass as choking incident.

And Olenna isn't that selfless to take the blame for a stranger. She protected her family and did the world a huge favour in ridding it of Jeoffrey. Nobody except Jaimie, Bronn, Varys (and Shae) care much about Tyrion, sadly.

Among other things: scene with Brienne and Jaimie was superb! So much hidden love from both. And Jaimie and Tyrion too.

My regret with Margeory and Tommen was that the kittie, Mr.Pounce, was already there. In the books she presented Tommen with a bunch of kittens, including Mr.Pounce. :)

[shapinglight]

Rewatched previous episode and was convinced even more that what happened with Jaimie and Sersei wasn't rape.
She was saying "it's not right" and responding to him in the end, and his "I don't care" was about "it's not right", i.e. to have sex in the Sept next to their son's body.

I completely agree that was the intention. I think it fell down somewhat in the execution, though. It should have been made clearer what it was Cersei thought not right, and what Jaime didn't care about.

Either way, have to admit it's as much a non-issue for me as it is for you.

[dalmeny]

Just watched it now. I'd guessed that Joffrey was offed by one of the proper adults on the show, either Olenna or Tywin. (The only other proper adult is Maister Aemon up at the Wall and possibly Davos.) Go Emma Peel etc.

[shapinglight]

Yes, I was beginning to think it had to be her too, even before I was spoilered.

[ex_peasant441]

I was fully expecting Tywin to do it soon, but I don't think he would ever use poison.

I like your characterisation of them as proper adults :D

[sibilant.livejournal.com]

I miss Joffrey already :) OK, total lie, but at least he was an honest psychopath, unlike some others ::hates Littlefinger with a fiery passion::

Dany is more boring every week, apart from her dragons. The Mother Teresa of the Poor Brown Slaves routine is wearing thin for me.

Gosh, all that repressed, stiff upper lip, longing between Jaime and Brienne was very Brief Encounter. Got me going anyway. Now they're apart, I'm worried for Brienne, but at least she has the (somehow) remarkable Podric as her squire. What could possibly go wrong?

[shapinglight]

hates Littlefinger with a fiery passion::

Yes, he's horrible, isn't he? People get angry (though not as angry as they should get) about what Joffrey did to Ros, but it was Littlefinger that gave her to him.

[caliente-uk.livejournal.com]

Really enjoyed this ep, especially the Jaime/Brienne scene (unsurprisingly lol). I have to admit to being creeped out by the Tommen/Margaery scene, but I think they could be good for each other. Tommen will most definitely make a much better King than Joffrey, as long as Tywin isn't allowed to get his claws into him too deep!

Littlefinger is incredibly scary. I actually think he's one of the biggest monsters in GoT - and there are many to choose from! *shudder*

[shapinglight]

Littlefinger is incredibly scary. I actually think he's one of the biggest monsters in GoT - and there are many to choose from! *shudder*

Yes, he's really horrible - and half the time he doesn't seem to have any real reason for doing what he's done. He just likes chaos.