Agent Carter, BtVS, Joss and feminism etc etc

[shapinglight]

Some rather incoherent thoughts on the above, some of which I should probably have waited and posted on the BtVS rewatch, but whatever.

I'm still enjoying the hell out of Agent Carter, though...

Spoilers behind cut



...I am left wondering, at the end of the penultimate episode, why Carter didn't tell Jack and Daniel who Dottie was right away. Okay, she was a bit out of it, but surely still capable of speech? Anyway, my own theory is that Carter said nothing because she thought if she did say anything, Dottie would probably kill both of them right in front of her.



Speaking of Agent Carter, I saw someone on Whedonesque (this was a while back when they were still talking about the show on that site, which they don't seem to be doing any more) saying that they thought it was the best show in terms of being centred around a great female character since BtVS. I made a comment agreeing with them.



And I still think so, with the following proviso: I haven't seen all shows and some of the ones I haven't seen could be about great female characters for all I know. Also, I think The Good Wife could more than give Agent Carter a run for its money.

However, I suspect that where genre shows are concerned I think it probably is true.

Yesterday, there was a link on the su_herald to a piece on Tumblr taking issue with Joss's claims to be a feminist because of the repeated trope in BtVS where every time Buffy has sex she gets punished for it. Not the first time in the last ten years or so that this subject has come up, of course, but I guess lots of people on Tumblr are watching the show for the first time and consequently think they're the first people to discover it.

Anyway, I thought, yes, this is true, Joss does seem to punish Buffy (and not just Buffy) for having sex.

I thought, it is of course true that you could rip Joss's feminist credentials to shreds, should you so choose. But I also thought that, despite some horrible mistakes (the aforementioned sex+Buffy=badness thing, the fridging of both Cordelia and Fred in AtS, pretty much everything in Dollhouse, the execrable Buffy comics) ultimately Joss's heart is in the right place, and if you want evidence of that you need look no further than his (and SMG's because it's a joint thing, IMO) creation of Buffy Summers.

That's what keeps coming back to me over and over while I'm re-watching the show. Buffy's an absolutely remarkable character. There was nothing like her before BtVS, and there's not been anything like her since, though yes, Peggy Carter comes close.

Hmm. Maybe that disgruntled fanboy on Buzzfeed was right about Agent Carter. It is about 'feminism, pure and simple' after all.

Comments

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

ultimately Joss's heart is in the right place

I don't know. Sometimes I wonder. Granted, it might be because I've come to actually dislike the guy--there was a time I used to defend him!--but I always seem to read his stuff now as having that fetishised/punishment tilt to it.

I blame the comics because it makes me question what the show would have been like without Berman, actors and the WB/UPN suits all pulling one way or another. Like one comment on that tumblr post said, he seems feminist when it fits the bottom line. When the audience is young women (like the WB), sure, but when it's primarily men (primetime FOX sci-fi or comic books), then not so much.

[shapinglight]

but I always seem to read his stuff now as having that fetishised/punishment tilt to it.

That element is there, no doubt, but it could be it's partly subconscious - or that his vision just isn't matched by the reality of making a TV show. Dollhouse was supposed to be a sort-of critique of torture porn, for instance, but the shoddy execution of large parts of the show meant it ended up appearing to endorse what it meant to condemn.

Also, if don't mind my saying, it seems to me as an outsider that Americans are more puritanical than Europeans, and the seeming punishment aspect of Buffy's (and pretty much everyone else's in Joss's shows) sexual encounters could owe something to that mindset, even if Joss isn't really aware of it.

Well, it's a thought.

And I understand why the comics have made you feel the way you do. I will never get why Joss gave Brad Meltzer the time of day.

I also understand what you mean about BtVS being a joint effort - not just of Joss's and SMG's, but of all those other people. sueworld2003 has described the show and how it came together as lightning in a bottle. I don't see Joss ever bettering it. Buffy Summers is an absolutely remarkable creation.

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

Like I said in frelling's LJ about it, I don't think BTVS is really that sex negative. There are healthy interactions. Or at least non-punishment ones. Giles/Olivia, Buffy/Riley, Xander/Anya, Willow/Oz, Willow/Tara. What it does, and it some ways it's worse, is it acts extremely preachy about who should be sleeping with who. I saw it remarked on somewhere that it's a little convenient that the relationships that Xander frowns upon in the show end horribly for the girl. Bangel, Spuffy, even Willow/Oz ends in heartbreak more or less because of Oz's wolfiness. So it does have that patronizing Nice Guy "Now look here, ladies" aspect to it.

Dollhouse was supposed to be a sort-of critique of torture porn, for instance, but the shoddy execution of large parts of the show meant it ended up appearing to endorse what it meant to condemn.

Yeah, I was baffled when someone brought up all the objectification, it was defended with it was supposed to be objectifying. I still dont' get it. I guess it's the belief that the people who get off on that stuff aren't aware of it. But they are. The objectification is the point.

That's not new to Joss, though. Back on the punishment topic, he claimed with B/A he wasn't punishing, but showing consequences. Basically just arguing with semantics. It's different when he does it. Somehow. I'm sure he has a jokey answer as for how.

[shapinglight]

So it does have that patronizing Nice Guy "Now look here, ladies" aspect to it.

Oh sure, I agree - and various remarks from the showrunners in season 6 have only served to cement that impression.

I guess it's the belief that the people who get off on that stuff aren't aware of it. But they are. The objectification is the point.

Yep. If you really hate this stuff and think it shouldn't be on TV or in films, you shouldn't make wank material for those who do like it.

ETA: Having said which, I actually thought season 1 of Dollhouse was very interesting. It could have been a good show if someone - anyone - had sat down and thought it all out properly.

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

Oh sure, I agree - and various remarks from the showrunners in season 6 have only served to cement that impression.

Yup. Which is why I tend to believe B/A was a punishment. I believe Joss himself has called it a cautionary tale. I think Giles's line in Innocence really sums it up because it's so self-contradicting and really comes off a slip by the writers.

[shapinglight]

Well, I've just been rewatching BtVS season 2, and whether it was meant as a punishment or not, one thing's for sure, Joss wasn't putting B/A out there as a great romantic ideal for teenage girls to aspire to.

Puts him leagues ahead of the other Twilight anyway.

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

Puts him leagues ahead of the other Twilight anyway.

Yeah. Shame he had to do the comics and ruin it.

[shapinglight]

So true.

I'm re-reading season 10 at the moment, and quite enjoying it. But it's not really BtVS. Apart from the first issue, where Gage wrote Buffy's thoughts so we saw things through her eyes, the series is really about Spike and Xander (or that's how it comes across to me). I don't think Gage means it to be but those two are his and NB's in-story avatars.

I don't at all get what Joss always said we should think about in the show. What is the 'Buffy' of it?

It's just an enjoyable enough comics story, if you don't think too hard about it.

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

Yup. Her entire story basically focuses on Spike and cheering on Xander/Dawn.

Will you be doing a pre-review tomorrow?

[shapinglight]

Quite probably.

[ex_peasant441]

The sex = bad thing can't be sexist because he shows it for the male characters as well. It doesn't seem to happen in Firefly (haven't seen any of his other stuff so can't comment on them) so it presumably isn't something Joss himself always believes. Maybe he felt it arose naturally in Buffy out of the vampire metaphor: in most canons, vampires = sex, in BTVS vampires = bad, therefore sex = bad. Actually I've never realised that before but now I have it's quite pleasingly neat! And definitely not sexist. Unless of course you are a pc nut who will find offence somewhere in everything - but who cares about them.

Its good if there are still people discovering the show for the first time.

[shapinglight]

I don't think this person was saying Joss is sexist, just that he's not as feminist as he thinks he is and citing the sex=badness thing as evidence. My point is that at least he tries. Most people in genre TV don't even do that.

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

On the topic of men writing feminism, Angie was rehearsing Ibsen's A Doll's House. (The same play that Cordelia's in in that Angel episode where she ends up using the power of acting to fool Angelus, much like Angie does here. Well, it wasn't an original plot the first time around either.) Yeah, they're not subtle about it, but for the most part I think it works (a 2015 series having a 1940s woman ironically quote an 1880s play to point out how far she hasn't come since...) FWIW and IMMO, it's always going to get tricky when men try to write feminism, since it's easy to approach it from a male POV and define it by what it's not. You could make the argument that some/a lot of the time, both Agent Carter and Buffy (and Ibsen) focus more on pointing out misogyny - a world that treats women unfairly - than promoting feminism. Those can be two sides of the same coin, but it takes a subtlety that far from all writers can pull off without coming across as revelling in it.

That aside, yeah, this was a really good episode (though I don't get why Dottie needed that rifle to send a message when she could have just used any old mirror?) They don't seem to be drawing out the plot unnecessarily - if this is all the Agent Carter we get, there should be a cracking ending. (Which hopefully isn't all about clearing Howard Stark's name.)

ETA: I was reminded of a line from the movie Seven Psychopaths, where Christopher Walken's character chews out Colin Farrell's.

Hans: Marty, I've been reading your movie. Your women characters are awful. None of them have anything to say for themselves. And most of them get either shot or stabbed to death within five minutes. And the ones that don't probably will later on.
Marty: *thinks* Well, it's... a hard world for women. ...I guess that's what I'm trying to say?
Hans: Yeah, it's a hard world for women, but most of the ones I know can string a sentence together!

[shapinglight]

On the topic of men writing feminism, Angie was rehearsing Ibsen's A Doll's House. (The same play that Cordelia's in in that Angel episode where she ends up using the power of acting to fool Angelus, much like Angie does here. Well, it wasn't an original plot the first time around either.)

Heh! No, and to be honest I think Cordelia carried it off better. I wasn't convinced by Angie's sobbing act.

You could make the argument that some/a lot of the time, both Agent Carter and Buffy (and Ibsen) focus more on pointing out misogyny - a world that treats women unfairly - than promoting feminism. Those can be two sides of the same coin, but it takes a subtlety that far from all writers can pull off without coming across as revelling in it.

Very good point, and very well illustrated by Joss's failure in Dollhouse, which at too many times came across as the torture porn it was supposed to be condemning, and by the plot of Buffy season 8, where Buffy's feminist utopia (or whatever it was) was so quickly undermined by reality (and her own failings). Neither of those were terribly subtle. I think for the most part Joss succeeded with BtVS, though.

I don't get why Dottie needed that rifle to send a message when she could have just used any old mirror?)

Yeah, that was a pretty silly red herring, wasn't it?

I don't mind so much of the final episode deals a lot with clearing Stark's name. It's not as if Peggy is in love with him. He's a friend. It's not often that you see female characters go out on a limb the way Peggy has for friendship alone.

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

I don't mind so much of the final episode deals a lot with clearing Stark's name. It's not as if Peggy is in love with him. He's a friend. It's not often that you see female characters go out on a limb the way Peggy has for friendship alone.

That is true. I just don't like the idea of the lasting effect of Agent Carter being "And thus, Stark was saved. Yay!" Her story, as shown on screen, is far more interesting than his.

[shapinglight]

Oh, I agree, but I don't think her story would necessarily be undermined if the major outcome of the final episode was Stark being cleared for good.

But I don't think that will happen. Chief Dooley already believes Stark is innocent.

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

In the shows defence, I would argue that the experiences with Angel and Parker were more about showing the experiences that a lot of young girls go through on the journey into adulthood, rather than coming across to me as specifically trying to shame Buffy for having sex. Buffy beats herself up after the one-night stand with Parker and says that she's a slut, but Willow immediately says that she's being ridiculous, and the show makes it very clear that Parker was the only one in the wrong for how he played Buffy.

The consequences with Angel's happiness clause made for one of the shows most powerful metaphors of the guy changing after you've slept with him, but I think it's crucial to note that none of Buffy's friends ever say that she was in the wrong there for sleeping with him, in fact Willow was encouraging Buffy to seize the day. Joyce (who doesn't have all the facts when she meets "stalker Angelus") did give Buffy a motherly lecture on how she doesn't understand Buffy's bad judgement in sleeping with someone so clearly unstable, but Giles tells Buffy she still has his respect and admiration and that he understands that Buffy and Angel loved one another. There was never any obvious lecturing or finger-wagging in Innocence over what were you thinking to sleep with someone at your age, it was all about the heartbreak of first love

And I wouldn't say that Buffy got punished *everytime* she had sex, she has several positive sexual experiences with Riley (well for whatever that's worth :P ) in season 4

Also Willow's first sexual experience with Oz was portrayed very positively with them having another session in Oz's van right before the graduation ceremony


I'd agree about Ats being messy though, that shows obsession with mystical pregnancies was a little weird

[shapinglight]

Hmm, I think I disagree with your main contention - about those instances not involving Buffy getting 'punished' in some way. However, probably 'punished' is the wrong word. I don't think Joss is ever trying to say she's a slut for having sex with people (though Xander pretty much does say that to both Buffy and Anya in season 6 for having sex with Spike), or that she deserves to suffer for it.

I think it's more that sex itself is problematic. Maybe he has some kind of complex?

I agree that Buffy's encounters with both Angel and Parker are great metaphors for experiences that many teenage girls go through (well, the Parker one isn't really metaphorical).

[chasingdemons.livejournal.com]

Bad things happened when she didn't have sex too. Sometimes I feel like people need to link the two to advance their own narrative. And I dislike the word "punished". It says more about the person making the statement than Buffy. Okay, I admit there is a pretty strong link between bad things and sex when it comes to Angel and Spike,but that's probably more about having sex with vampires. In every situation, she ultimately took her power back, and that makes her a feminist in my opinion.

[shapinglight]

Well, I agree with you, and I think 'punished' probably is the wrong word.

Elsewhere, rahirah, who is usually right, points out that it's not so much in the text as the subtext, and is a cumulative kind of thing.

Wish I could have insights like that. ;)

[sibilant.livejournal.com]

At least BtVS is a programme that feels like it's interested in women, with a plot propelled by women being protagonists. There's still not many shows like that. I still find that aspect of it refreshing. But I don't see signs of feminism in any of Joss's other work. Maybe it was just something he wanted to explore at the time and now he's all grown up, he wants to play with the big boys.

You're feeding my desire to see Agent Carter. I really like Hayley Atwell, so I'm looking forward to it a lot. (Although ::whisper:: I'm enjoying Better Call Saul ATM).

[shapinglight]

At least BtVS is a programme that feels like it's interested in women, with a plot propelled by women being protagonists. There's still not many shows like that.

Well, exactly - and that's why BtVS is still, among genre shows, so unique, and why I love Agent Carter so much, even though it's a very different kettle of fish.

You're right that Joss's other works don't continue in that vein.