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shapinglightSome rather incoherent thoughts on the above, some of which I should probably have waited and posted on the BtVS rewatch, but whatever.
I'm still enjoying the hell out of Agent Carter, though...
Spoilers behind cut
...I am left wondering, at the end of the penultimate episode, why Carter didn't tell Jack and Daniel who Dottie was right away. Okay, she was a bit out of it, but surely still capable of speech? Anyway, my own theory is that Carter said nothing because she thought if she did say anything, Dottie would probably kill both of them right in front of her.
Speaking of Agent Carter, I saw someone on Whedonesque (this was a while back when they were still talking about the show on that site, which they don't seem to be doing any more) saying that they thought it was the best show in terms of being centred around a great female character since BtVS. I made a comment agreeing with them.
And I still think so, with the following proviso: I haven't seen all shows and some of the ones I haven't seen could be about great female characters for all I know. Also, I think The Good Wife could more than give Agent Carter a run for its money.
However, I suspect that where genre shows are concerned I think it probably is true.
Yesterday, there was a link on the![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-community.gif)
su_herald to a piece on Tumblr taking issue with Joss's claims to be a feminist because of the repeated trope in BtVS where every time Buffy has sex she gets punished for it. Not the first time in the last ten years or so that this subject has come up, of course, but I guess lots of people on Tumblr are watching the show for the first time and consequently think they're the first people to discover it.
Anyway, I thought, yes, this is true, Joss does seem to punish Buffy (and not just Buffy) for having sex.
I thought, it is of course true that you could rip Joss's feminist credentials to shreds, should you so choose. But I also thought that, despite some horrible mistakes (the aforementioned sex+Buffy=badness thing, the fridging of both Cordelia and Fred in AtS, pretty much everything in Dollhouse, the execrable Buffy comics) ultimately Joss's heart is in the right place, and if you want evidence of that you need look no further than his (and SMG's because it's a joint thing, IMO) creation of Buffy Summers.
That's what keeps coming back to me over and over while I'm re-watching the show. Buffy's an absolutely remarkable character. There was nothing like her before BtVS, and there's not been anything like her since, though yes, Peggy Carter comes close.
Hmm. Maybe that disgruntled fanboy on Buzzfeed was right about Agent Carter. It is about 'feminism, pure and simple' after all.
I'm still enjoying the hell out of Agent Carter, though...
Spoilers behind cut
...I am left wondering, at the end of the penultimate episode, why Carter didn't tell Jack and Daniel who Dottie was right away. Okay, she was a bit out of it, but surely still capable of speech? Anyway, my own theory is that Carter said nothing because she thought if she did say anything, Dottie would probably kill both of them right in front of her.
Speaking of Agent Carter, I saw someone on Whedonesque (this was a while back when they were still talking about the show on that site, which they don't seem to be doing any more) saying that they thought it was the best show in terms of being centred around a great female character since BtVS. I made a comment agreeing with them.
And I still think so, with the following proviso: I haven't seen all shows and some of the ones I haven't seen could be about great female characters for all I know. Also, I think The Good Wife could more than give Agent Carter a run for its money.
However, I suspect that where genre shows are concerned I think it probably is true.
Yesterday, there was a link on the
su_herald to a piece on Tumblr taking issue with Joss's claims to be a feminist because of the repeated trope in BtVS where every time Buffy has sex she gets punished for it. Not the first time in the last ten years or so that this subject has come up, of course, but I guess lots of people on Tumblr are watching the show for the first time and consequently think they're the first people to discover it. Anyway, I thought, yes, this is true, Joss does seem to punish Buffy (and not just Buffy) for having sex.
I thought, it is of course true that you could rip Joss's feminist credentials to shreds, should you so choose. But I also thought that, despite some horrible mistakes (the aforementioned sex+Buffy=badness thing, the fridging of both Cordelia and Fred in AtS, pretty much everything in Dollhouse, the execrable Buffy comics) ultimately Joss's heart is in the right place, and if you want evidence of that you need look no further than his (and SMG's because it's a joint thing, IMO) creation of Buffy Summers.
That's what keeps coming back to me over and over while I'm re-watching the show. Buffy's an absolutely remarkable character. There was nothing like her before BtVS, and there's not been anything like her since, though yes, Peggy Carter comes close.
Hmm. Maybe that disgruntled fanboy on Buzzfeed was right about Agent Carter. It is about 'feminism, pure and simple' after all.
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no subject
Date: 2015-02-13 12:22 pm (UTC)Like I said in frelling's LJ about it, I don't think BTVS is really that sex negative. There are healthy interactions. Or at least non-punishment ones. Giles/Olivia, Buffy/Riley, Xander/Anya, Willow/Oz, Willow/Tara. What it does, and it some ways it's worse, is it acts extremely preachy about who should be sleeping with who. I saw it remarked on somewhere that it's a little convenient that the relationships that Xander frowns upon in the show end horribly for the girl. Bangel, Spuffy, even Willow/Oz ends in heartbreak more or less because of Oz's wolfiness. So it does have that patronizing Nice Guy "Now look here, ladies" aspect to it.
Dollhouse was supposed to be a sort-of critique of torture porn, for instance, but the shoddy execution of large parts of the show meant it ended up appearing to endorse what it meant to condemn.
Yeah, I was baffled when someone brought up all the objectification, it was defended with it was supposed to be objectifying. I still dont' get it. I guess it's the belief that the people who get off on that stuff aren't aware of it. But they are. The objectification is the point.
That's not new to Joss, though. Back on the punishment topic, he claimed with B/A he wasn't punishing, but showing consequences. Basically just arguing with semantics. It's different when he does it. Somehow. I'm sure he has a jokey answer as for how.
no subject
Date: 2015-02-13 05:08 pm (UTC)Oh sure, I agree - and various remarks from the showrunners in season 6 have only served to cement that impression.
I guess it's the belief that the people who get off on that stuff aren't aware of it. But they are. The objectification is the point.
Yep. If you really hate this stuff and think it shouldn't be on TV or in films, you shouldn't make wank material for those who do like it.
ETA: Having said which, I actually thought season 1 of Dollhouse was very interesting. It could have been a good show if someone - anyone - had sat down and thought it all out properly.
no subject
Date: 2015-02-13 06:34 pm (UTC)Oh sure, I agree - and various remarks from the showrunners in season 6 have only served to cement that impression.
Yup. Which is why I tend to believe B/A was a punishment. I believe Joss himself has called it a cautionary tale. I think Giles's line in Innocence really sums it up because it's so self-contradicting and really comes off a slip by the writers.
no subject
Date: 2015-02-15 07:01 pm (UTC)Puts him leagues ahead of the other Twilight anyway.
no subject
Date: 2015-02-16 01:21 pm (UTC)Puts him leagues ahead of the other Twilight anyway.
Yeah. Shame he had to do the comics and ruin it.
no subject
Date: 2015-02-16 02:16 pm (UTC)I'm re-reading season 10 at the moment, and quite enjoying it. But it's not really BtVS. Apart from the first issue, where Gage wrote Buffy's thoughts so we saw things through her eyes, the series is really about Spike and Xander (or that's how it comes across to me). I don't think Gage means it to be but those two are his and NB's in-story avatars.
I don't at all get what Joss always said we should think about in the show. What is the 'Buffy' of it?
It's just an enjoyable enough comics story, if you don't think too hard about it.
no subject
Date: 2015-02-16 06:36 pm (UTC)Yup. Her entire story basically focuses on Spike and cheering on Xander/Dawn.
Will you be doing a pre-review tomorrow?
no subject
Date: 2015-02-16 10:16 pm (UTC)