'Shippers: a poll

[shapinglight]

Since Scott Allie's latest rather inept attempt to make nice with the fans, I've been pondering something.



Unless he's being very disingenuous (always possible), it seems that discovering there are such people as Spike fans, let alone Spuffy 'shippers, or 'shippers of any description, has come as a surprise to him. He didn't know they were out there. I suppose there's no reason why he should know. I doubt the two main 'shipper groups took much notice of the old 'non-canon' Buffy comics, because of course what 'shippers want is validation of their 'ship and they're not going to get that from non-canon works.

Now they are getting it (or some of them are). The only way to know whether more people are displeased than pleased with what they're reading would be to look at the sales figures, and those will probably go up again anyway when the final Joss-penned arc comes out, because even those who are so far disappointed will probably be hoping, despite themselves, for a few crumbs thrown in their direction. If it was Allie's decision alone, I suspect it would happen. As it is, this being Joss, it probably won't.

What I am wondering, though, is this:

If I was to go by my LJ flist, I would say that the rump of the BtVS fandom consists of far more Spike/Spuffy fans/'shippers than it does Angel/Bangel ones. Certainly, wherever you look, the Spike-centric section of the fanbase seems to be the most active. They even have a reasonable presence on Whedonesque and Buffyforums, the latter of which seems to be distinctly unfriendly towards them. Is this just a false impression I get from my flist or is it a general impression any of the rest of you have?

Are the Spike/Spuffy fans the largest group, or are they just the loudest?

Of course, how you answer will probably depend on where you're coming from to start with, so this is hardly scientific.

[Poll #1558788]

ETA: If you choose to give your answer in comments, please resist the urge to character bash, fan bash or gloat. Thank you.

Comments

[candleanfeather.livejournal.com]

My opinion would be the vast majority who is indifferent to or unware of shipping. As for judging which group out of Spike/Spuffy fans or Angel/Bangel fans is the most important one, I'd tend to go with the first one, but it's totally biased by the fact I mostly stay on this side of fandom. The fact that Angel was the lead character of his own show is likely to give him the edge over Spike in terms of supporters.

[rahirah]

If we just went by LJ, I would say S/B fans are a pretty large group, if not the largest. But LJ is by its nature a biased medium, since you only see the things you want to see. So I'm guessing that the casual fans are actually the largest group.

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

I think the active online fandom, who write meta, fanfic, reviews, etc. there the Shippers are certainly the biggest group and Spuffy shippers is probably the biggest, most active faction there.

With the casual fans there seem to be fewer shippers. Funny thing is I never met a Bangel shipper in rl. I met quite a lot of Buffy fans from all kinds of background but they all either shipped Spuffy or nothig at all. Many never got into the Angel show and many had the impression I had before I discovered fanfiction (that he was pretty boring).

Generally I have the impression that Bangel is a lot more popular in the USA than in the rest of the world. There they might even be the biggest group and that's where "official" fandom, the part that has the most contact with the creatives (on cons and such) is seated.

[sueworld2003.livejournal.com]

Funnily enough I have met a 'casual' Bangel shipper in real life. They would be what Simonf would call 'a mainstream Joss fan' and they saw Buffy/Angel as the 'official ship' and took everything they saw at face value after that.

Depressing really.

[simonf.livejournal.com]

If we go outside LJ, I think that the general fans of the show would be the biggest block in the fandom, followed by the pro-Joss contingent. And then character fans/shippers after that.

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

But don't they strongly overlap.? I mean, almost everyone in fandom is a Joss-fan, but also nearly everyone has their favorites among the characters.

[deborahc.livejournal.com]

I have absolutely no idea, since I only hang out here, in the Spuffy corner of the fandom. I can't gauge the size of other factions I'm not watching, let alone participating in.

[willowgreen.livejournal.com]

Exactly what I was going to say. Thank you.

And I just want to add that that bit from Allie was one of the most obnoxious, condescending non-apology apologies I've ever read. Unlike many on my flist, I was only mildly outraged by issue #34--and the fact that it had Buffy hooking up with Angel had nothing to do with my outrage--but now I'm starting to really dislike that dude.

[http://users.livejournal.com/woman_of_/]

Not really sure that I can answer. I'm not a Spuffy or Bangel shipper (as I'm sure you are aware), but Spangel. As a Spike fan, I tend to stick to my own little part of fandom, so not really aware of what is happening outside my flist, unless I get a link. Even then that tends to be Spike-centric.

I feel I'm more a live and let live. I'm not that strong a shipper, and it sometimes annoys me. I would quite happy to write Gen, and often do in my drabbles.

To be honest, I have ONE, yes One Bangel shipper and writer on my flist. I do have others who love Angel and DB, but they tend to be Spangel shippers.

*coming from my slashy heart*

[rahirah]

I have several Bangel shippers on my flist, and I've lurked at a Bangel board from time to time - but to be honest, that's what's given me the impression that on LJ, they're a relatively small group. Most of the ones on my flist are no longer active in Buffyverse fandom, and the few who are often complain about the dearth of new Bangel fic/writers. The big Bangel ficathon rarely has as many participants as the big Spuffy one (and the big Spuffy one runs twice as often as the big Bangel one.)

However,, while active Bangel fandom seems pretty moribund, there do seem to be a lot of 'retired' Bangel shippers on LJ, who may not participate in fandom any longer, but who come out of the woodwork to comment when something favorable to their ship happens.

[sueworld2003.livejournal.com]

If we're just talking about shipping groups here, I'd guess that there's more Bangel shippers out there, as it's the 'official' power couple, so to speak. Stamped. it seems, with Joss's approval. I also believe that because Angel had his own series, more 'casual' fans when asked which pairing they were aware of/liked, would say Buffy/Angel because of that.

Although I do also think that in Europe the Spuffy ship seems a bit more prevalent. I suspect it's because maybe there's something in that pairing as they saw it unfold on their screens that appeals to the European sentiments.

[shapinglight]

If we're just talking about shipping groups here, I'd guess that there's more Bangel shippers out there, as it's the 'official' power couple, so to speak.

Well, makd below reminded me of the research she did five or so years ago about the fandom, and you can see which was the biggest group then by which box she ticked in the poll. I think the same is probably true of the online fandom now. It may not, of course, be true of the wider, more 'casual' fans.

It would be interesting to know if Spuffy really does appeal more to Europeans, but short of someone doing some proper research, there's no way of knowing.

[hello-spikey.livejournal.com]

Every person I've ever discussed Buffy with in real life is a Spike fan or Spuffy shipper. Every. Last. One.

But, admittedly, that's not a lot of people.

A friend of mine just watched the show for the first time. She was initially very pro Angel/Buffy, up until Spike was introduced. Then she was "Angel who?"
Heee!

[shapinglight]

A friend of mine just watched the show for the first time. She was initially very pro Angel/Buffy, up until Spike was introduced. Then she was "Angel who?"
Heee!

I should try and introduce some friends to BtVS and see what happens. However, I know I would just be greeted by some bemused looks, so there's no point.

[whichclothes.livejournal.com]

I'm not much of s shipper myself--I'm pretty happy to see Spike with anyone, especially if that someone is male. *g* But I see a lot of Spuffy fics with a still-robust audience, and very little Bangel. But then maybe I'm not looking in the right places, since I mostly haunt the Spikish sections of LJ.

When the series was originally on, I liked Angel but wasn't thrilled about Angel/Buffy as a couple. Then Spike came along and, like with hello_spikey's friend, he was my immediate fave character. But I wasn't especilly thrilled with the whole Spike/Buffy thing, either (actually, I have a whole long, boring story about that).

[shapinglight]

But I see a lot of Spuffy fics with a still-robust audience, and very little Bangel. But then maybe I'm not looking in the right places, since I mostly haunt the Spikish sections of LJ.

Well, me too, but I don't see an awful lot of B/A stuff linked to either, by the people who do links. Which is not to say it isn't out there.

(actually, I have a whole long, boring story about that).

I'd be interested to hear it some day. I do like both 'ships in their place. I'm just very, very puzzled by the way Spuffy seems to have been consigned to the scrapheap by the comics given that it takes up as much time in the show as B/A does and has as many, if not more, fans.

[menomegirl.livejournal.com]

I'm going to agree with simonf's comments on this one.

At times, it seems like Spike/Spuffy is the largest fan group but travel much around livejournal (or elsewhere) and you realize that it only just seems that way. There's a very large Spike/Angel faction that probably rivals (if not surpasses) both B/A & B/S. Also a large Spike/Xander fanbase.

[shapinglight]

Well, when I say Spike/Spuffy, I suppose I make it look like those two things are interchangeable, which I know they're not. However, there is some interchange, and makd below reminds us that she did some far from subjective academic research five years ago when the fandom was at its height, that showed Spike was the most popular character with online fans (see the answer she ticked in the poll).

This is more me trying to say, character-centric fans and 'shippers are probably more common than 'general' fans no matter what simonf may think, especially not when the fandom has shrunk so much, rather than Spuffy >>>>Bangel, btw.

[makd.livejournal.com]

Hah! NOT SUBJECTIVELY - based on the research I did in 2004, when the fandom was at its numerical fattest, and reported on in my book on the Internet fandom.

Send him to me; I'll tell him everything he needs to know about ALL the 'ships and the 'shippers.

[shapinglight]

I was going to ask you what your conclusions were. Then I saw which answer you ticked. So there is empirical proof that my suspicion was right? That's nice to know. I would happily link him to your research if I could. Is it available online anywhere?

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

I remember back when TVGuide did their polling crap, S/B used to win. Not that that is exactly a scientific indicator or anything, but I still went with it because in conjunction with the sheer number of Spike/Spuffy stuff you still see around, it's got to be a pretty big group. I don't see many active B/A people, it's just some are very, very loud and know the right people.

[shapinglight]

I don't see many active B/A people, it's just some are very, very loud and know the right people.

I'd agree with that assessment. I think 'shippers/character-centric fans as a whole, though, could well be more numerous than the so-called silent majority who dislike the 'shipping phenomenon.

[next_to_normal]

I'm absolutely certain my opinion is biased, since I rarely venture out of the Spike/Spuffy corner of fandom, so I'll defer to those who have a broader view and say that the people who aren't shippers at all probably outnumber any single shipper fangroup (though all the shippers put together probably outnumber nonshippers).

I do think that Spuffy is much more popular nowadays than Bangel, and is probably the largest character or pairing fangroup.

[shapinglight]

I do think that Spuffy is much more popular nowadays than Bangel, and is probably the largest character or pairing fangroup.

I think makd's research from about five years ago would probably bear that out, and I doubt things have changed. Odd the way this doesn't seem to have got through to the PTBs at Dark Horse (let alone Joss).

As far as the non-'shipper/anti-'shipper section of the fandom being bigger than the 'shipper one, it could possibly be true of any wider fandom that remains outside the online one, I'm pretty sure that where the vocal online fandom is concerned, the character-centric/'shipper fans exist in greater numbers simply because the nature of the beast is that they will be more tenacious.

[demoniodehiel.livejournal.com]

I think a bit like hello_spikey I only know Spuffy and Spangel fans. My forums, webs and blogs are spikecentrics (and spuffys and spangels shippers) And this is GREAT for me.

In the poll, honestly, I miss the spangel option, the second one in importance in my opinion, after the spuffy, and I take many-many-many-many years in the fandom.

Thanks

[shapinglight]

I know it probably wasn't ideal to conflate Spike fans with Spuffy fans, but there is some overlap and I suspect they get lumped together in the minds of other fandom groups.

[thedabara-cds.livejournal.com]

I'm an ex-spuffy, primarily Spike/Xander, secondarily Spike/Angel, but really when it comes to fanfic I pretty much will read Spike/anybody. And from what I see the S/X fandom is still going pretty strong; IMO Spuffies, S/X fans and S/A fans each outnumber B/A fans by quite a bit.

[shapinglight]

IMO Spuffies, S/X fans and S/A fans each outnumber B/A fans by quite a bit.

I think you're probably right. I also think that in general, the character-centric and 'shipper-centric portions of the fandom, no matter who they like most/'ship are probably still more active than the more 'general' fans.

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

I can only go by my entire family (an imperfect sample if ever there was one) and anybody with whom I've ever watched the show:

People who really get into it like Spike, mostly. They are annoyed by Angel, mostly.

People who are casual fans don't care much either way.

If you've ever been to a Buffy-Sing-Along, the massive cheering at the ending kiss doesn't indicate "Not Spike: Angel" to me.

I think it comes down the the degree of fannishness a person has. Does BtVS have "casual" fans? I'm am unable to render an unbiased opinion.

[shapinglight]

I think it comes down the the degree of fannishness a person has. Does BtVS have "casual" fans? I'm am unable to render an unbiased opinion.

Yes, I think how one defines 'fan' may well enter into how one answers this poll. Scott Allie may be addressing the 'casual fan' (whoever they are), but ironically, his words are mainly being read by the more dedicated online fans, who tend to be far more character-centric/'ship-centric.

[quinara]

I don't know!!! (I keep looking at the poll, but am paralysed by indecision - that's how much I don't know!)

[shapinglight]

Well, I think there are plenty of comments here that might help you make up your mind. I would especially recommend makd's, if you also look and see which box she ticked.

[slaymesoftly.livejournal.com]

oooh boy! Lots of interesting comments and perspectives. Like many people, I came to online fandom because of Spike. So, I can't say there are more of us, because that's all I know - Spike and Spuffy lovers (not always the same thing. *g*). My inclination is to say we're the biggest group, but that's totally based on my not knowing anyone who isn't. In RL, oddly enough, the only other person who I know is a fan of the show is a Bangel. We've never had a conversation about it though, and it's never been a source of strife.

I suspect that Angel does have a lot of fans who are fans because he had his own show for five years. That's fair. If you think about, what does it say about Spike's character that he has such an active and vocal fanbase when he's never been anything but a supporting character? :) Granted, a very important supporting character eventually, but still...

[shapinglight]

My inclination is to say we're the biggest group, but that's totally based on my not knowing anyone who isn't.

Your inclination may well be more correct than you thought, given what makd says above. That said, I think that character-centric/'ship-centric fans probably outnumber 'disinterested' fans by a long way, even now when the fandom is essentially dead. In fact, possibly even more so now.

[treadingthedark.livejournal.com]

I definitely see more Spike/Spuffy fans on live journal but that may be a function of my friends list. It's easy to find fic groups, lj groups, communities, and message boards dedicated to Spike and Spuffy fiction and conversation.
I'm not looking for Bangel so I guess I wouldn't know. However, I have to say that on the more mainstream boards, Darkhorse, and Whedonesque which feel fairly unfriendly to Spike fans, we are definitely a minority. I have bouts of staying away from them myself when I get frustrated at the Spike hate. But the Bangel fans who do post there seem obsessesd with making their views known and claiming to share everyone's views, whether it be writing letters to Joss, Jeanty and Allie, asking the same shippery questions in every Q and A or running ads.
I have to say though that it seems that Spangel fandom is just as big as Spuffy, with Spander a bit behind, but still ahead of Bangel according to what I see.

[shapinglight]

It's easy to find fic groups, lj groups, communities, and message boards dedicated to Spike and Spuffy fiction and conversation.

Yes, where many of the Angel/Bangel ones do seem to be pretty much dead in the water.

I agree, though, that certain of the boards out in the wider reaches of fandom are very anti-Spike/Spuffy. Not sure if this is because Spike/Spuffy fans are really in a minority or because the fans who dislike him/the 'ship are particularly vocal.

[bogwitch.livejournal.com]

Although my experience on the web has been nearly totally Spike-centric, there was a brief period long ago during season six when I frequented the Cross and Stake and there was all sorts there, though I don't remember any dominant group. However, every woman I've spoken to in RL about Buffy (a fair few) has liked Angel.

[shapinglight]

there was a brief period long ago during season six when I frequented the Cross and Stake and there was all sorts there,

My experience too. There was a large contingent of Spike/Spuffy friendly fans, though. Otherwise, there wouldn't have been so many of the awful rows that there were.

However, every woman I've spoken to in RL about Buffy (a fair few) has liked Angel.

I've only met one person in RL who liked the show and who I didn't first meet online, and she preferred Spike to Angel.

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

Judging by what I see on message boards, Spuffy shippers are definitely way more active when it comes to discussion. And there are a LOT more fan video's and fan fic for them. I've seen complaints about how Buffy fandom doesn't have much fan fic to offer these days, unless you read Spuffy or slash

But Buffy/Angel have always been considered more marketable, and they were a big hit with mainstream fans back during the high school years which are still commonly considered the golden age for the show. So I wouldn't be surprised if people associated with the comics really were genuinally surprised to discover that many Buffy fans aren't still pinning for B/A to get together. IMO Spuffy have the bigger hardcore fanbase by far, but they're not visable among casual viewers (outside of fandom) in the same way as the B/A love story was

[shapinglight]

So I wouldn't be surprised if people associated with the comics really were genuinally surprised to discover that many Buffy fans aren't still pinning for B/A to get together. IMO Spuffy have the bigger hardcore fanbase by far, but they're not visable among casual viewers (outside of fandom) in the same way as the B/A love story was

Yes, I'm sure you're right, though Fox's refusal to market any merchandise the Spuffy 'shippers' way continues to astonish me. People will have it that they made some kind of 'moral' decision to do that because of the AR, but I honestly don't believe that. If they were aware Spuffy 'shippers were out there, they would try to sell things to them.

[treadingthedark.livejournal.com]

I introduced Buffy/Angel to a group of about 6 young adult men a couple of years ago. None of them claim to be shippers, but all huge Spike fans, to the extent that one bleached his hair and got a long leather coat for halloween. I suppose I may have prejudiced them. Other than that I have only met three Buffy fans in real life. One Spuffy shipper, and another couple who love Spike but are not shippers.

[shapinglight]

None of them claim to be shippers, but all huge Spike fans, to the extent that one bleached his hair and got a long leather coat for halloween

:) one of my daughter's friends went to a fancy dress party as Spike. I guess he does have a very distinct look that is also easy to copy.

[atsbtvslover.livejournal.com]

I have to go with Spangel or Willow/Angel or Willow/Spike or W/A/S. Even though I loved the TV program, and understood the "opposites attract" thing, I never understood why Buffy always wanted what she said she didn't want. She always wanted normal.

[shapinglight]

Well, the purpose of the poll wasn't really to discover what people 'ship, but more their impression of which is the largest group of fans left in the fandom. I would say that character-centric fans and 'shippers are probably the biggest group and that the legions of 'general' fans are possibly mythical.

[sentine.livejournal.com]

If I go by LJ, I'd say Spike/Buffy, but a quick Google search gives more answers for Bangel. In the end, I think that the casual fans who are unaware or indifferent to ship form the majority.

Personally, Spike/Buffy are the first fan fiction I discovered on the web (I think it was on "All about Spike"). Well, until I found "The Adventures of Captain Peroxyde and Deadboy", and that was my paradigm shift ;)

[shapinglight]

In the end, I think that the casual fans who are unaware or indifferent to ship form the majority.

I don't know. Do you think those people would be invested enough to buy the comic? Possibly. I do think that where online fandom is concerned, the character-centric and 'shipper-centric groupings are probably the majority. It's the nature of the beast.

[demoniodehiel.livejournal.com]

Hello. I have looked at something in that probably this of can be interested or in helping
They are two captures of my statistics of last month (every month they are very similar) it shows for what words the people have looked more to enter to my Buffy web (http://www.buffy-cazavampiros.com/)
. It is a web of the series Buffy, general. It has a lot of traffic, is a known site. And there you can see for what the fans were looking, and in what order.

screencap1 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v639/demoniodehiel/Blog/statsabril.jpg)

screencap2 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v639/demoniodehiel/Blog/statsabril2.jpg)

I can see that Spike, Buffy and Spike search (Or directly buffy shagging Spike :)
I can see this always.

The web is in Spanish, for whom it uses also as sample of a fandom that is not in English.

Thanks and a greeting

[shapinglight]

That's very interesting. Thank you.

[http://users.livejournal.com/mad_brilliant_/]

Considering that Spike always wins the BtVS & AtS popularity polls done by mags and websites, I'd say that he's the most popular character. I mean, he even beats Buffy and Angel in those polls. As for pairings, since Spike's the most popular, and people like to see their favorite get the girl of their dreams, I'd say that Spuffy is most popular too. Which is why it boggles me how such a large portion of the fanbase is continuously dismissed by TPTB.

[shapinglight]

Which is why it boggles me how such a large portion of the fanbase is continuously dismissed by TPTB.

It seems utterly bizarre to me too. If it weren't that I don't think such an attitude is possible, I would say they don't want our money. :)