Hadley Freeman weighs in on the Joss Whedon has problems with the word 'feminist' controversy.

[shapinglight]

Hadley's well worth a read, no matter what the subject (very funny, for one thing). Her thoughts on
the 're-branding' of feminism.

Have to say, I do wonder if Joss ran his recent speech by his wife before delivering it.

Comments

[laisserais]

Oh Joss, what are you doing. It looks to me like he's taken all the claptrap about being a feminist hero to heart and decided that his ~opinions are interesting on this subject.

I enjoyed her article, thanks for the link! It's really sad/funny to read people who say things like 'I'm not a feminist, but.' Or 'Equality but also beauty makeovers!' As if policing how things appear isn't inherently opposed to the concept of equality. Sigh.

[shapinglight]

I think Joss's heart is in the right place, but yes. I do think his words are given unreasonable weight, and that he's coasting somewhat on the BtVS effect where it comes to the depiction of women in his work.

[yourlibrarian]

Yes, just to use the word "branding" in regard to feminism strikes me as nefarious for exactly the reason that marketers co-opted the concept in the 70s to sell women cigarettes and clothing under the guise of liberation.

The reason people have such negative reactions to the word "feminism" is because it is inherently threatening in some way to the manner in which they are living their lives. That gives it power in a way that a more agreeable sounding term probably will not have.

[shapinglight]

Yep. Well said.

[ex_peasant441]

She is a good writer, but I can't say I agree with her. If feminism is something that a large number of women are rejecting then either it is because we have perfect gender equality and no longer need it (not many would make that claim) or it does have an image problem.

[shapinglight]

If feminism is something that a large number of women are rejecting

I don't know that it is.

[ex_peasant441]

Perhaps I got the wrong end of the stick from that article then. I got the impression she was complaining that lots of celebrities were saying they weren't feminists and others had said feminism needed a make-over.

I watched the Joss clip she linked to. Why is it proving so controversial? His point struck me as fairly trivial, but then I doubt he is qualified to address the big issues facing women around the world so perhaps it is sensible he sticks to the trivial, and in and of itself it seemed a valid viewpoint.

[tripleransom.livejournal.com]

First off, "lots of celebrities" does not equal "many women".

Secondly, she then quotes exactly 2 incredibly privileged women to whom basic feminist issues such as oh, say, wage equality are completely irrelevant.

After all, how can you be a genuine feminist without a $250 gold chain?

Oh yeah, and thirdly - Joss Whedon - pbpbttt!

[shapinglight]

I got the impression she was complaining that lots of celebrities were saying they weren't feminists and others had said feminism needed a make-over.

She mentioned four celebrities (if Geri Haliwell still counts as one, or if the editor of Elle does). I don't think that's the same as 'lots.' Also, Hadley is pretty tongue in cheek about celebrities in general. Her stating some quote of theirs with regard to feminism in a jocular manner doesn't mean that she thinks those opinions have any weight.

The Joss clip is only controversial because he's regarded as a female and feminist-friendly writer, who has even so fallen into the trap of telling women what to do. That's all.

[ex_peasant441]

Then I guess I don't understand what point she was actually making. If she thinks most women are happy with feminism as it stands, and if she thinks the opinions of those she quotes don't count then... what?

who has even so fallen into the trap of telling women what to do

Yeah, well that is one of my main beefs with the whole ism industry - this nonsensical belief that only the people who suffer prejudice are allowed to offer suggestions for how to solve the problems. Makes me mad every time I see it expressed. In many cases the reverse is actually true - if you want to join a club, ask a member of the club about the membership criteria, not someone who's been blackballed. Although I still think Joss's actual point was pretty trivial, but that is a function of it being a trivial point, not of him being a man.

[shapinglight]

You did get the part about this being a funny piece, didn't you?

this nonsensical belief that only the people who suffer prejudice are allowed to offer suggestions for how to solve the problems.

That's not what the problem is. And the problem isn't about joining some 'club.' You make it sound as if women all want to join some men's 'club', which is naturally better than their own 'club' and everything will be fine if they just let some man tell them how to do it.

To me, that's nonsensical.

[ex_peasant441]

You did get the part about this being a funny piece, didn't you?

Actually I didn't. Whatever the humour is I suspect it relies on in-jokes and a culture I am not part of.

That's not what the problem is.

Which I suspect gets to the heart of why someone like me will never use the word feminist. It is a fundamental methodological difference in how we view the world and hence how we think problems should be solved, and a very profound one.


NB: A flock of several thousand wood pigeons just flew over (heading south) - an amazing sight.

[shapinglight]

Which I suspect gets to the heart of why someone like me will never use the word feminist. It is a fundamental methodological difference in how we view the world and hence how we think problems should be solved, and a very profound one.


Yep. You'll just have to accept that I am right and you are wrong. ;)

It's a horrible day here today. The only birds out in it are gulls.

[ex_peasant441]

That's a shame - we are having one of those wonderful golden autumn days.

[shapinglight]

We had one of those yesterday, until about 3pm. Now it's horrid. I got soaked on the way to work this morning. :(

[ex_peasant441]

Take care of yourself. Getting cold and wet won't do your back any favours :(

[shapinglight]

Actually, you're right. It was hurting by the time I got to work.

:(

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

His speech was a bit man-splainy.

[shapinglight]

Yes, just a bit.

[kikimay]

As I grew older, I came to like makeover scenes a lot less because it became obvious to me that it wasn't the woman who needed making over, it was everyone else who needed an open mind. Feminism doesn't need a makeover, a rebranding, a softer sound or even a gold necklace: some people just need an education.

THIS. THIS. THIS. FOREVER THIS.
Everytime I say that I'm a feminist people think about "bra-burning lesbianism", quoting the Red Spice Girl. (Seriously did she said that shit?) At the same time I also believe that words are important not only because they have meaning but also because they evolve diachronically. So I also believe that the final -ISM puts many people off because it implies gender superiority.

[shapinglight]

It is true that the meaning of words does change over time. However, I really can't think of a better one (and don't think Joss's suggestion works).

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

I tend to think the problem is not with the word, but with people using it to describe things that are anything but. Reminiscent of the USA's foreign policy regarding freedom. Freedom for everyone*!

*As long as they behave how we like. Violation of this rule will result in freedom being revoked and installation of oppressive puppet dictator.

[shapinglight]

but with people using it to describe things that are anything but.

I agree with this. I also think a lot of people go out of their way to misunderstand it on purpose.

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

I also think a lot of people go out of their way to misunderstand it on purpose.

Oftentimes people (read: women) who have benefited most from it (and the suffragette movement before it.) Women like the ones in the article who can hold careers and even own businesses; own their own property and vote and speak in public without fear of being stoned; who can use birth control and have at least some control over their own bodies

My mother told me that when she first got married she was not allowed to purchase a car or get a loan from the bank without a signature from her husband. She's 65 years old, so this would have been about 45 years ago - within my lifetime.

Women make up 51% of the world's population and own about 2% of it's wealth. This is what feminism is meant to address: crushing gender disparities.

There are certainly problems with the main leadership of the feminist movement, ie the focus on white, middle-class college educated women; this is an issue that has nothing to do with the word "feminist" itself.

And re-branding is not going to bring about any changes.

The fact that Joss admits to not having read feminist theory is risible, but I guess his stories (the comics, Dollhouse) are proof enough of that. I'm long past done with giving him a pass. But it's things like this that make me want to reclaim the term, just as I reclaim the term "lesbian" whenever I read about another gay teenager who committed suicide because they were harassed and received no support in their community. The war ain't over, folks, and that's a fact.

[shapinglight]

I think thismaz below has a point, in that many (not all by any means) girls growing up in affluent western countries these days encounter less of the blatant sexism that was the norm when Maz and I (and your mum) were growing up, so may at times feel feminism has become irrelevant.

However, I do think many go on to realise how easily all these hard-won rights could be taken away again. Not to mention how non-existent they are in many parts of the world. I think it's a shame that so many of them seem to have taken the hostile establishment/media interpretation of the word 'feminism' on board, but likewise don't think that picking a new word is going to change that very fundamental hostility.

As for Joss, I always feel his heart is in the right place, but yes, he's coasting. Has been ever since BtVS ended. How much of that is down to having to make a living in Hollywood and how much to believing his own hype, I couldn't say.

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

However, I do think many go on to realise how easily all these hard-won rights could be taken away again. Not to mention how non-existent they are in many parts of the world. I think it's a shame that so many of them seem to have taken the hostile establishment/media interpretation of the word 'feminism' on board, but likewise don't think that picking a new word is going to change that very fundamental hostility.

100% AGREEMENT. THIS is the point.

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

I also think a lot of people go out of their way to misunderstand it on purpose.

Oh, absolutely. In a lot of ways, it's the price of all labels and names. I think I sort of agree in some ways as the above poster that arguing over a word is in some ways trivial (especially Joss doing it), but it's more a symptom of a far more sinister problem. As what you say below suggests, if you trivialize the name, you trivialize the movement by association. Changing the name doesn't fix this underlying problem: That feminism is being trivialized.

Not a great parallel, but it reminds me of the term redneck. Ask 95%* of the population what they think of when it's mentioned, and you'll have a picture painted of some one-toothed, racist troglodyte who hasn't had a bath since the last time the roof caved in. But the term originated from when miners and miner supporters used to tie red cloths around their necks to show their solidarity with workers who were literally at war (battles, bombs) with their employers over working conditions. Without these people, modern working standards would not be what they are. They've largely been forgotten.

Changing the name, rebranding... just seems like another step along that road, to trivializing the history and work done by the movement.

*totally made up statistic, but I'd bet it's fairly accurate

[shapinglight]

Changing the name, rebranding... just seems like another step along that road, to trivializing the history and work done by the movement.

Yep. I'd agree with that.

I think it makes more sense to try and rescue the current word from the people who are trying to trivialise it rather than start using a new one, which will just be mocked in the same way.

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

But the term originated from when miners and miner supporters used to tie red cloths around their necks to show their solidarity with workers who were literally at war (battles, bombs) with their employers over working conditions. Without these people, modern working standards would not be what they are. They've largely been forgotten.

I for one honestly did not know this, thank you.

[thismaz.livejournal.com]

It was an enjoyable article. Thanks for the link.

Unfortunately for the word 'feminism' I do think there is a generational understanding of what it is.

For people born before the 1975 act, it is obvious.

But young people for whom the idea of two people working side by side being paid differently because of their sex, for whom the idea that women should not go to university "because they would be taking up a man's place" (yes, that was said to me once, back in the late 70s) would not even make sense as a sentence, for whom getting married/having children is an unquestioned choice of their own... for those young people, the word describes a political protest movement they read about in history classes. And those street marches have no more relevance to today, than food rationing does.

If a new word can be found that describes the continuing fight for sexual equality, a word that does not carry those history lesson connotations, then I'm fine with that.

I will continue to use the word I grew up with and understand, however.

[shapinglight]

You are of course right, Maz. I don't know if such a new word exists, though, or, if one were agreed on, if it wouldn't then sustain the same level of deliberate misinterpretation in some circles as 'feminism' currently does and just bring everything full-circle again.

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

if one were agreed on, if it wouldn't then sustain the same level of deliberate misinterpretation in some circles as 'feminism' currently does and just bring everything full-circle again.

We had one before: "suffragette". The term was specific to the goal of women's suffrage (the right to vote) but came to encompass so much more: the right of women to be full citizens and not the wards of their fathers/husbands/sons, the right to own property, to be treated as equal human beings.

And some of the very same criticisms, the same stereotypes, existed then as now. Everything old really is new again.

[shapinglight]

True.