(no subject)

[shapinglight]

Okay, there's clearly something wrong with me.

Not only was I not particularly upset by the scene in GoT that's upset so many other people, but I also enjoyed the Buffy comic.

:sigh:

I think this house renovation business has had a bad effect my brain. :(

Comments

[kikimay]

Totally nothing wrong with you! (I didn't watch the latest GoT episode but I read what happened and I'm like WTF?! Why they had to ruin Jaime?) Personally I was just too enthusiast for S9 and when it disappointed me it ruined my mood.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Haven't read the comic, but I wasn't shocked by the Jaime/Cersei scene. It was pretty squicky in the book to begin with.

[tx-cronopio.livejournal.com]

I mean given that he's already pushed a seven year old out a window, and worse, I didn't really see how that scene was out of character.

[bogwitch.livejournal.com]

I didn't weigh in earlier, but I wasn't shocked by GOT either. It's hardly the mot horrible thing to happen in the series. I'm not condoning it though.

Perhaps the most important thing is that the issue is being discussed?

[spikesjojo.livejournal.com]

I know nothing about the comic. But the scene everyone is so upset about - it just annoys me that suddenly art/storytelling is under attack for expressing and showing some things that really happen. We have to eliminate rape - but we can keep torture, beheading, burning alive, crucifying children, hunting down girls and having them torn apart by wild animals, mass murder.....I mean - what? There's more of an outcry over this then there was when Joeffrey tortured the two whores to death!

This whole rape culture in the media thing is driving me nuts - do people really believe that there was no rape before television? Or that far more detailed rape porn is not one click away? Do they really think someone will look at that scene and think - damn gotta try that.

And if anyone speaks out they are either extremely ignorant, or rape supporters.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Theon Greyjoy and Elia Targaryen agree...

(Oh and that lady who was kept by the Boltons who ate her own fingers before starving to death. She agrees too.)

[bogwitch.livejournal.com]

All publicity is good publicity....

[ex_peasant441]

Lead in the paint dust?

It amuses me that the one thing GoT felt they had to pan away for was a castration - shows the gender of who is making the decisions, I think.

[shapinglight]

I totally understand that. Thing is, knowing Gage's work from other comics from other companies, despite how much I loathed A&F :spit: 20, I felt he was a decent-ish comics writer and would probably produce something that would be readable at least - which, IMO, is a first for the Buffy comics. And that's how it's proved.

As for Jaime, I completely understand why people who love the character from the books are upset and also why this is a dealbreaker for many of them. I also think the GoT showrunners have been naive to say the least (or perhaps stupid is a better word), but the scene in question doesn't change my view of Jaime in the show. I still find him interesting anyway.

[shapinglight]

As a non-book reader the scene didn't really change my view of Show!Jaime. It didn't make me like him any more or less than I did before.

It could well be that after SR, nothing could ever hit me as hard again, though, plus I'm not so invested in Jaime as I was/am in Spike. For those who are, it is of course very different.

[shapinglight]

No, or rather it doesn't make him less, or more, bad than he was before.

[shapinglight]

Perhaps the most important thing is that the issue is being discussed?

I agree. In fact, the more fuss there is the better. The showrunners of GoT - just like Joss way back when - need a lesson in not blithely using rape as a way of furthering male characters' stories.

Not to mention a reminder that reinforcing the whole 'no means yes' myth is a very, very bad thing and people don't like it.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I have great empathy for the Jaime fans. I know how such a story turn hurt with Spike.

Frankly, it didn't change my general opinion of Jaime. Jaime has his decent moments, but he isn't a 'good' guy.

I'll be honest, as much as I freaking LOATHE Joffrey... I always thought something was way, way wrong with Jaime for being so wholly disconnected from his children. He seriously never gave a damn about his kids.

...Which is why one of my refrains has constantly been that if Jaime wants any redemption points he NEEDS to do something about protecting and taking care of Tommen and Tommen's kittens! It sounds funny, but I'm not joking.

[shapinglight]

Tommen has kittens?

Yes, it does seem odd that Jaime is so divorced (as it were) from his children. I suppose he would have to emotionally distance himself from them to some extent because he had to keep up the pretence that Robert was their father, but from what I've seen in the show (which is all I have to go on) he seems to have consigned them wholly over to Cersei in every way. He's focused on her to the exclusion of everything else. I wonder what will happen now that connection has been broken.

If it has.

[shapinglight]

Yep. Totally.

[kerry-220.livejournal.com]

I was just squicked at where they were in GoT. It was the next day I heard all the controversy. Jaime is a disgusting human being in my opinion. It pays to be reminded.

I also enjoyed the comic. The characters are interacting and there"s actually a bit of a plot!!! Maybe that"s lowered expectations talking - but I can't seem to be too cynical yet. I recall feeling a bit disappointed in the first comic of S9. That party was OOC all round and I hated the art. I don't think I ever rose from that opinion.

This time, gage seems to have heard the fans and watched a bit more of the show. I'm especially pleased with how he is handling Xander.. The guy is funny again. Now if he can just unload Xander/Dawn I'll be content :-)

[shapinglight]

It is a tricky area, I agree, though I doubt that everyone who is upset about it is just fine with all those other horrible things in GoT. I think many people find the extreme violence too much for them.

I think also that the problem for many is that rape as a crime is still not taken seriously enough and therefore it makes people very annoyed to see it being used as a means to an end, if you like, which it has been in both Jaime's case here and in Spike's back in 2002 (boy, nothing much has changed in twelve years!). In both cases, it's been used to further a male character's arc and the victim gets forgotten in that. Not Spike or Jaime's faults, of course, since they're fictional, but a blind spot on the part of their creators (in Joss's case), and in the GoT showrunners' in Jaime's case.

It makes me angry that anyone still thinks this is a viable plot device in the context they use it, and in the GoT case seems so bizarrely unaware of the whole 'no really means yes' can of worms.

Ultimately, though, you are right in that it would be a good thing if one day rape could be regarded the same as other serious but not fatal crimes, and the baggage that comes with it - victim-blaming, the shame that attaches to it in some cultures, its use as a weapon of war to terrorise civilian populations which can make women (or men) doubly victims in cultures where to be raped is to be dishonoured - could be consigned to the dustbin of history where they belong.

We haven't got there yet, though.

[shapinglight]

I have to disagree with you on that one. I like Xander/Dawn and want them to stay together.

But the writing is better where everyone's concerned, and that includes Buffy, and of course the whole story stands or falls on how well she's written. Gage can tell a good tale. His plots hang together. The story may not have the depth of the show and some of the resolutions may be simplistic (certainly the case in season 9 where the Angel/Twilight thing was concerned) but at least you don't (as yet) want to bang your head against a brick wall when reading.

And I agree the writing in season 9 issue 1 was 'off.' I couldn't understand the praise people heaped on it. I thought Joss wrote Buffy so terribly it was embarrassing. She was like a drunk three year old.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Tommen has kittens?

In the novel Tommen has adorable kittens (Ser Pounce, Lady Whiskers, and Boots) that he dotes upon (of course in the novel he's like seven years old).

This is notable in Cersei's POV because it makes her remember/wonder why people (who are not her) were so disturbed by what Joffrey did at about the same age when Joffrey took it in his head to disembowel a living kitchen cat to see its kittens in utero.

... yeah. Non-sociopaths looked at that with horror.

Tommen dotes adorably on kittens v. Joffrey torturing them.

Gee, Cersei, why doesn't this bother you?!!

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Probably helped that you hadn't read the book (Storm of Swords)? And Jamie wasn't one of your favorite characters?

This was sort of equivalent to the Seeing Red for Jamie fans.

In the book, Jamie has just returned to King's Landing. He's just discovered his son died. He comes to comfort Cersei. They seek comfort in each others' arms, but it leaves both feeling unfulfilled and disturbed. It is a cleverly written sequence, that is complex and lends insight to both characters. We are also in Jamie's pov.

The scene in the show - was in comparison (sigh) a tv cliche. Nasty female character gets raped, makes her more sympathetic. (It's a trend right now.) In the books - Robert B may have raped Cersei, or so it is implied, during their past. So rape is there. But in flashback. And never with Jamie. Jamie, it is made clear in the books - would never rape a woman.

So...remember how you felt about Spike attempting to rape Buffy in Seeing Red? Well...

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Well...remember Seeing Red? Remember how you felt about Spike? This is similar.

In the books, it did not happen. The scene was completely different. So imagine having read a book version of Seeing Red, where Spike doesn't attempt to rape Buffy, and this is made clear that he wouldn't. Then seeing a tv version that well showed what it showed.

That's what the outcry was about.

It's also about a recent trend in tv shows...where unsympathetic female characters are raped in order to make them sympathetic. Strong female characters. To the point it has become cliche.

The original scene in the books was far more interesting and disturbing. Cersei uses sex as a weapon and a comfort. That scene in the books got it across. The writers went the cliche route...which made no sense. And for many book readers was out of character. (I read the book's for Jamie's arc - because it was similar to Spike's in many ways, but more realistic and more complex.)

[mrs-underhill.livejournal.com]

I wasn't upset by that GOT scene either, but then Jaimie is not my favorite character. I also didn't think it was rape, I had the impression Sersei meant "yes" in the end.

I don't know why they changed the scene from the book. I don't like when they show "no mean yes" situations. But GoT had scenes which were so much worse. Like what Jeoffrey did to those whores, or disgusting scenes with Theon and Bolton's women seducing him.

As for Jaimie - we were shown how he went back for Brienne, and how he made up sapphire stories because he couldn't stand the thought of her being raped.

With Sersei he acted out on her demanding that he'd kill Tyrion, and pushing him away at the same time. It was more like making her pay for his service with sex, and he knew that she would give it to him and despised her for it, and she knew that she would give it to him too, that she needed to, and hated it.

But it wasn't rape. It was twisted and nasty, and was awful from Jaimie, but still wasn't rape because she was ready to do it in the end. Not because Jaimie forced her into sex. But because he forced the issue that if she wants something as deprived as killing his brother from him, she had to have sex with him, and feel like crap because of it. And she was ready to do it, but she just thought that Jaimie would still love her enough and pity her enough not to force that issue. But he did...

I'm sure it's the last time they had sex, and that it was their breakup.

As for character assasinations - well, what Martin did to Tyrion in the books pretty much ruined him for me. Seems like the show is steering away from that particular nastiness. So you lose some and you get some... And I'm still not over what the show did to Loras, so I can sympathize. But I don't think this scene will ruin Jaimie in the show.

[kerry-220.livejournal.com]

My rational mind knows Xander is not Dawn's brother or any kind of relative. I'm also know many people date friends of their siblings - I have, my kids have. I just can't get past it. They seem related and my last recollections of Dawn have her as a young teenager.

But then again, you can't doubt that they know one another well. A stable relationship in the Buffyverse is not to be sneezed at.

[slaymesoftly.livejournal.com]

I enjoyed the comic this month. Hard to tell where they're going with it yet, but so far it's not bothering me a lot. Didn't give me any bunnies, either, but maybe that's a good thing. Nothing I wanted desperately to "fix" yet. ;)

[spikesjojo.livejournal.com]

I understand what you are saying but I would like to say that child abuse is also a very serious issue. Read the paper and you see kids tortured, starved and killed by parents, relatives, neighbors and strangers. So I really can't see the rape as the sole issue. I have more of an issue about using a child thrown out a window, another child torn up by dogs for fun, two children murdered by being burned to death, a young girl being given in marriage against her will and raped by her adult husband - the list goes on. In fact, why so much less concern of the rape of Deneryus than the rape of Cersei? In Afghanistan they are trying to pass a law that girls as young as nine can be married and that husbands can rape their wives. In India rape is a severe problem but torturing, burning with acid, and murdering brides because their dowries aren't large enough is also an issue. Look at Malala to see what can also happen to a girl who stands up for her rights.

Using any form of abuse to further the plot is distasteful, but look at our own fanfic. Spike in particular is put through rape, torture, and all sorts of abuse. Hurt the pretty - and a lot of us enjoy those stories to various degrees. Maybe this is some sort of subconscious need to punish him for the ATTEMPTED rape. What I resent is that somehow saying that Spike is an unsouled demon is seen as making an excuse rather than describing the actual problem. To see nuance is not the same as approval.

A story needs conflict and sometime conflict is ugly. To take one hideous form of abuse and declare it beyond the pale, but allow all the others without the same degree of horror sends a message. To object to women as victims, and not object to the portrayal of men as victims is telling as well. In particular, to object to the rape of an adult, and let pass the rape of a child by an adult is a message.

I seriously am interested in an answer here - an exploration of my questions. Hoping that one day killing, raping, and abusing children to further the plot will be as upsetting to the general population as rape is a strange place to find myself in.

Actually, I think I need to add a YMMV. I'm a trifecta abuse survivor - mental, physical and sexual (lucky me). While I have had family experience with rape, child abuse is something more to me than to others perhaps.