(no subject)

[shapinglight]

Okay, there's clearly something wrong with me.

Not only was I not particularly upset by the scene in GoT that's upset so many other people, but I also enjoyed the Buffy comic.

:sigh:

I think this house renovation business has had a bad effect my brain. :(

Comments

[kikimay]

Totally nothing wrong with you! (I didn't watch the latest GoT episode but I read what happened and I'm like WTF?! Why they had to ruin Jaime?) Personally I was just too enthusiast for S9 and when it disappointed me it ruined my mood.

[shapinglight]

I totally understand that. Thing is, knowing Gage's work from other comics from other companies, despite how much I loathed A&F :spit: 20, I felt he was a decent-ish comics writer and would probably produce something that would be readable at least - which, IMO, is a first for the Buffy comics. And that's how it's proved.

As for Jaime, I completely understand why people who love the character from the books are upset and also why this is a dealbreaker for many of them. I also think the GoT showrunners have been naive to say the least (or perhaps stupid is a better word), but the scene in question doesn't change my view of Jaime in the show. I still find him interesting anyway.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Haven't read the comic, but I wasn't shocked by the Jaime/Cersei scene. It was pretty squicky in the book to begin with.

[shapinglight]

As a non-book reader the scene didn't really change my view of Show!Jaime. It didn't make me like him any more or less than I did before.

It could well be that after SR, nothing could ever hit me as hard again, though, plus I'm not so invested in Jaime as I was/am in Spike. For those who are, it is of course very different.

[tx-cronopio.livejournal.com]

I mean given that he's already pushed a seven year old out a window, and worse, I didn't really see how that scene was out of character.

[shapinglight]

No, or rather it doesn't make him less, or more, bad than he was before.

[bogwitch.livejournal.com]

I didn't weigh in earlier, but I wasn't shocked by GOT either. It's hardly the mot horrible thing to happen in the series. I'm not condoning it though.

Perhaps the most important thing is that the issue is being discussed?

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Theon Greyjoy and Elia Targaryen agree...

(Oh and that lady who was kept by the Boltons who ate her own fingers before starving to death. She agrees too.)

[shapinglight]

Perhaps the most important thing is that the issue is being discussed?

I agree. In fact, the more fuss there is the better. The showrunners of GoT - just like Joss way back when - need a lesson in not blithely using rape as a way of furthering male characters' stories.

Not to mention a reminder that reinforcing the whole 'no means yes' myth is a very, very bad thing and people don't like it.

[spikesjojo.livejournal.com]

I know nothing about the comic. But the scene everyone is so upset about - it just annoys me that suddenly art/storytelling is under attack for expressing and showing some things that really happen. We have to eliminate rape - but we can keep torture, beheading, burning alive, crucifying children, hunting down girls and having them torn apart by wild animals, mass murder.....I mean - what? There's more of an outcry over this then there was when Joeffrey tortured the two whores to death!

This whole rape culture in the media thing is driving me nuts - do people really believe that there was no rape before television? Or that far more detailed rape porn is not one click away? Do they really think someone will look at that scene and think - damn gotta try that.

And if anyone speaks out they are either extremely ignorant, or rape supporters.

[shapinglight]

It is a tricky area, I agree, though I doubt that everyone who is upset about it is just fine with all those other horrible things in GoT. I think many people find the extreme violence too much for them.

I think also that the problem for many is that rape as a crime is still not taken seriously enough and therefore it makes people very annoyed to see it being used as a means to an end, if you like, which it has been in both Jaime's case here and in Spike's back in 2002 (boy, nothing much has changed in twelve years!). In both cases, it's been used to further a male character's arc and the victim gets forgotten in that. Not Spike or Jaime's faults, of course, since they're fictional, but a blind spot on the part of their creators (in Joss's case), and in the GoT showrunners' in Jaime's case.

It makes me angry that anyone still thinks this is a viable plot device in the context they use it, and in the GoT case seems so bizarrely unaware of the whole 'no really means yes' can of worms.

Ultimately, though, you are right in that it would be a good thing if one day rape could be regarded the same as other serious but not fatal crimes, and the baggage that comes with it - victim-blaming, the shame that attaches to it in some cultures, its use as a weapon of war to terrorise civilian populations which can make women (or men) doubly victims in cultures where to be raped is to be dishonoured - could be consigned to the dustbin of history where they belong.

We haven't got there yet, though.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Well...remember Seeing Red? Remember how you felt about Spike? This is similar.

In the books, it did not happen. The scene was completely different. So imagine having read a book version of Seeing Red, where Spike doesn't attempt to rape Buffy, and this is made clear that he wouldn't. Then seeing a tv version that well showed what it showed.

That's what the outcry was about.

It's also about a recent trend in tv shows...where unsympathetic female characters are raped in order to make them sympathetic. Strong female characters. To the point it has become cliche.

The original scene in the books was far more interesting and disturbing. Cersei uses sex as a weapon and a comfort. That scene in the books got it across. The writers went the cliche route...which made no sense. And for many book readers was out of character. (I read the book's for Jamie's arc - because it was similar to Spike's in many ways, but more realistic and more complex.)

[ex_peasant441]

Lead in the paint dust?

It amuses me that the one thing GoT felt they had to pan away for was a castration - shows the gender of who is making the decisions, I think.

[shapinglight]

Yep. Totally.

[kerry-220.livejournal.com]

I was just squicked at where they were in GoT. It was the next day I heard all the controversy. Jaime is a disgusting human being in my opinion. It pays to be reminded.

I also enjoyed the comic. The characters are interacting and there"s actually a bit of a plot!!! Maybe that"s lowered expectations talking - but I can't seem to be too cynical yet. I recall feeling a bit disappointed in the first comic of S9. That party was OOC all round and I hated the art. I don't think I ever rose from that opinion.

This time, gage seems to have heard the fans and watched a bit more of the show. I'm especially pleased with how he is handling Xander.. The guy is funny again. Now if he can just unload Xander/Dawn I'll be content :-)

[shapinglight]

I have to disagree with you on that one. I like Xander/Dawn and want them to stay together.

But the writing is better where everyone's concerned, and that includes Buffy, and of course the whole story stands or falls on how well she's written. Gage can tell a good tale. His plots hang together. The story may not have the depth of the show and some of the resolutions may be simplistic (certainly the case in season 9 where the Angel/Twilight thing was concerned) but at least you don't (as yet) want to bang your head against a brick wall when reading.

And I agree the writing in season 9 issue 1 was 'off.' I couldn't understand the praise people heaped on it. I thought Joss wrote Buffy so terribly it was embarrassing. She was like a drunk three year old.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Probably helped that you hadn't read the book (Storm of Swords)? And Jamie wasn't one of your favorite characters?

This was sort of equivalent to the Seeing Red for Jamie fans.

In the book, Jamie has just returned to King's Landing. He's just discovered his son died. He comes to comfort Cersei. They seek comfort in each others' arms, but it leaves both feeling unfulfilled and disturbed. It is a cleverly written sequence, that is complex and lends insight to both characters. We are also in Jamie's pov.

The scene in the show - was in comparison (sigh) a tv cliche. Nasty female character gets raped, makes her more sympathetic. (It's a trend right now.) In the books - Robert B may have raped Cersei, or so it is implied, during their past. So rape is there. But in flashback. And never with Jamie. Jamie, it is made clear in the books - would never rape a woman.

So...remember how you felt about Spike attempting to rape Buffy in Seeing Red? Well...

[shapinglight]

And Jamie wasn't one of your favorite characters?

I do like Jaime quite a bit, actually, but that's down to his scenes last season with Brienne. Before that, he was just a git. Now, he's a complex git. Really, the scene hasn't changed anything for me. I still find him interesting.

I do understand why people are upset, though.

FWIW, I don't think it made Cersei more sympathetic. I think what made her more sympathetic was the scene beforehand with Tywin lecturing Tommen on what it takes to be a good king while Joffrey's body was lying in state. It was plain as plain that Cersei was the only person who mourned him and that she was hurt by it.

[mrs-underhill.livejournal.com]

I wasn't upset by that GOT scene either, but then Jaimie is not my favorite character. I also didn't think it was rape, I had the impression Sersei meant "yes" in the end.

I don't know why they changed the scene from the book. I don't like when they show "no mean yes" situations. But GoT had scenes which were so much worse. Like what Jeoffrey did to those whores, or disgusting scenes with Theon and Bolton's women seducing him.

As for Jaimie - we were shown how he went back for Brienne, and how he made up sapphire stories because he couldn't stand the thought of her being raped.

With Sersei he acted out on her demanding that he'd kill Tyrion, and pushing him away at the same time. It was more like making her pay for his service with sex, and he knew that she would give it to him and despised her for it, and she knew that she would give it to him too, that she needed to, and hated it.

But it wasn't rape. It was twisted and nasty, and was awful from Jaimie, but still wasn't rape because she was ready to do it in the end. Not because Jaimie forced her into sex. But because he forced the issue that if she wants something as deprived as killing his brother from him, she had to have sex with him, and feel like crap because of it. And she was ready to do it, but she just thought that Jaimie would still love her enough and pity her enough not to force that issue. But he did...

I'm sure it's the last time they had sex, and that it was their breakup.

As for character assasinations - well, what Martin did to Tyrion in the books pretty much ruined him for me. Seems like the show is steering away from that particular nastiness. So you lose some and you get some... And I'm still not over what the show did to Loras, so I can sympathize. But I don't think this scene will ruin Jaimie in the show.

[shapinglight]

I don't know why they changed the scene from the book. I don't like when they show "no mean yes" situations. But GoT had scenes which were so much worse. Like what Jeoffrey did to those whores, or disgusting scenes with Theon and Bolton's women seducing him.

I agree entirely. I also agree with your interpretation of the scene, which is probably what the director was going for.

[spikesjojo.livejournal.com]

Funny, I have no problems with what Tyrion does in the books - in the context of the books. I just have no idea how they can play it because of changes in the show. Not wanting to get spoilery but the reasons behind his actions have barely been touched on.

[slaymesoftly.livejournal.com]

I enjoyed the comic this month. Hard to tell where they're going with it yet, but so far it's not bothering me a lot. Didn't give me any bunnies, either, but maybe that's a good thing. Nothing I wanted desperately to "fix" yet. ;)

[shapinglight]

A&F was like that too in season 9. There aren't really any gaps to slip plots down.

[kassto.livejournal.com]

Nah, you're just your own woman!

[shapinglight]

:Waves:

How are you?

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